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How far can you go without having a halachik affair?
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:12 am
if she wants to maintain any self-respect ... whatever she does or doesn't do should at minimum wait until after a proper 'gett'

any man is but a prick if all he wants is zex Idea

take a cold shower !!!
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:18 am
If she goes too far even by "accident" this boyfriend will be as forbidden to her as her stbxh.
Assur l'boel, assur l'baal.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 11:20 am
amother wrote:
of course he will be there for her. she's not a passive participant in this "affair" - it's not something being done to her. They haven't done penetration afaik, so that's good.


There are two issues here.

Her own self control, and

His self control.

Whether or not there is a bedieved for what already happened is one question.

But each time they are in the same room, l'hatchila, the halacha is, no touching at all.

If she chooses to ignore the halacha, well, not much you can do, except refer her to a rav if she asks you.

But if she chooses to not be intimate again, and he pressures her, you should encourage her to see that he is being a jerk and a user.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 12:25 pm
Iymnok wrote:
If she goes too far even by "accident" this boyfriend will be as forbidden to her as her stbxh.
Assur l'boel, assur l'baal.


This is a really good point that I'm sure she doesn't know about. I will tell her this. Thank you!!
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doctorima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 12:25 pm
As others have said, she's definitely going down a slippery slope and asking for trouble. Even if she would have a get, she's still not allowed to have a physical relationship with him.

But it sounds like that's not her question. So the answer to her question is that until she has a get, she is fully married according to halacha as much as any other happily married woman here. Therefore, if she has full-blown relations with him, that is considered adultery, which in the times of the Beis HaMikdash was punishable by death, and which renders her forbidden both to her current husband and to ever marry this other guy. It is therefore strongly in her best interest to at the very least not go there until she receives a get.
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motherof4nyc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 1:11 pm
Why doesn't she put pressure on the bais din or soon to be ex to give her the get ASAP?
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 1:18 pm
The secular divorce is what takes forever. If he's not a refuser why doesn't she have her get yet?
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Orchid




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 3:47 pm
Not only will she not be able to marry him, some ex husbands (and batei dinim who go along with them) will label such a woman a "moredes" and is therefore not entitled to the kesubah payout - and some even will hold -the get itself.

A "moredes" term slapped on her can be a marriage death sentence and could possibly lead to long-term agunah status. Of course, men have no such worries about labels being slapped on them...

So, to review:
1. He's using her
2. Until she has the actual get, she may not commit the actual deed with him. (Some hold any violation of touching with a married woman -and she is still married lehalacha- is part of this sin).
3. Every violation of halacha is its own separate sin. There is no such concept as "we've done so much already, may as well do more." She must stop now.
4. If they do the deed, they are halachicly forbidden to marry each other, and finally
5. The soon to be ex-husband has a lot of leeway to have her considered a moredes, with all the halachic implication this entails.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 4:31 pm
Sorry if this is OT but once she has a get is it halachikly ok for her to have s-x with her "boyfriend"?
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 17 2017, 4:59 pm
amother wrote:
Sorry if this is OT but once she has a get is it halachikly ok for her to have s-x with her "boyfriend"?


Obviously no, but it's not longer an issue of adultery
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ValleyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2017, 7:20 am
To the people quoting the age old adage:

"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.."

works BOTH ways-

Seems like SHE is using HIM
just as much as
HE is using her!

Or, in other words... two adults engaging in consensual S*x.

Seems to me she is looking for some sort of permission?!
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2017, 7:55 am
trixx wrote:
tell her he is a tool, he is using her and not to be surprised if he dumps her after he gets what he wants. why buy the cow when you can get the milk free Rolling Eyes if he respected her as a human being let alone woman let alone woman in this specific situation, he wouldn't be pressuring her.

remember he walks away scot-free regardless. she is the one left with the mess.


Just in terms of this last point, I'm not sure what you mean. Adultery is just as forbidden to the man in the partnership as the women, and both are theoretically chayav misah and equally forbidden to marry each other afterwards. (There is a difference in the sense that since a man is technically allowed to have multiple wives, if the man is married but the woman is single, the relationship is not considered adultery -- but again, it is not adultery for the woman involved either. IOW whether or not a relationship is considered adulterous halachicly is determined by the woman's marital status -- but the status is the same for both parties in the relationship)
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amother
Puce


 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2017, 8:56 am
If she goes farther than that she will qualify as an Isha Sota, if I'm not mistaken. There is no worse aveira than that. No one will tell her it's okay, since it very much isn't.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2017, 9:36 am
And forget about her ever finding a decent shidduch, no one will want to look at her. She could get herself into such a mess, it's so not worth it for her and for her self dignity and esteem. She must be feeling so little about herself to be up to this point. Please try to be as best a friend to her in her trying times. That's a real friend. Op I know it's a hard position.

hopefully this doesn't turn into a messy situation. You can be her support to help her. Maybe even good for you to speak with a professional for how to support her. It would be nice.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2017, 9:38 am
amother wrote:
If she goes farther than that she will qualify as an Isha Sota, if I'm not mistaken. There is no worse aveira than that. No one will tell her it's okay, since it very much isn't.


No. The word "sotah" does not mean "adulteress", which is "noefet". A sotah, which word is derived from "shotah", or "fool", is a married woman who has isolated herself with a man about whom her husband has warned her not to isolate herself. IOW, the husband suspects her of adultery with someone specific but has no proof. The stupid woman went ahead and isolated herself with this other man, the husband found out and brought charges against her. The point of the ordeal of the water is to prove whether or not the husband's suspicions are correct. A sotah may in fact be innocent of adultery, and if so, the ordeal vindicates her. If guilty, she dies a horrible death.

Also, to say "there is no worse aveirah" than adultery is not quite correct. Yes, it is one of the Big Three, but we have no way of knowing whether there is a hierarchy (Is it worse than murder or idolatry? who can say?) or whether all three of the Big Three are equal. And within arayot, how do you know that adultery is the worst? Maybe incest or bestiality is worse, or maybe they are all equally awful.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Wed, Jan 18 2017, 9:55 am
I would like to show another side of this discussion and I hope that posters will understand a different perspective.

Quite a few years ago, when I was going through a divorce, I was lonely and vulnerable. My soon to be XDH had been emotionally abusive, my Dad was emotionally abusive, the rest of my family were not overly supportive and it was me and my kids. I foraged into the world of 'Adult relationships'. This included men of all kinds, religious and non religious, married and non married (No, I'm not proud of this at all). I was desperately looking for love, attention and mainly a good hug and the price you have to pay for that, is generally zex.

I had crazy online relationships, I met with a few of them, the minute they realized I was not willing "to go all the way", I was dropped like a hot cake and even accused of leading them on or as one 'wonderful' married man told me: "You have caused me such emotional pain".
I was aware that I was behaving in a manner that was against Torah and Halacha and plain ol' morality, I was legally an adult, making my own decisions but they were totally clouded by emotional pain and need. I had nobody to turn to or speak to at that time and these men used my vulnerability. I do not blame them for my part of the wrongdoing, for that I am solely responsible. It took me many years to come to the realization of the severity of my actions and caused me to go to therapy and reevaluate myself and what type of person I want to be.

This friend of yours is going through a hard time, is looking for sympathy, empathy and a hug. Fact is, if she were just looking for Zex, she wouldn't have even brought up the topic with you. The guy may be a nice guy, he may be just a regular guy with needs, he may be a jerk, but she needs to reevaluate why she is with him and what she wants from herself.

Ask her this: If he would tell you that he would only continue a relationship with you, if you agree to have zex with him, what would your response be?
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