How could the Nazis have been so heartless?

pause

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 12:28 pm

amother wrote:

With the nazis - if you want to say they wanted to exterminate the Jews to make themselvesa a perfect race - they can kill them.
But for grown men to make sports of killing babies at their own hands or feet (my grandmother saw this done to a sibling) is beyond comprehension. These were educated men - its beyond comprehension.

Education has got nothing to do with it. Morals cannot be formed from education.

ora_43

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 12:40 pm

When it comes to preventing genocide, I think it's less important to understand the murderers' motivation than to understand how to stop them.

If we understand why people join ISIS - all well and good, but it's not like we're going to be able to force ISIS members to get psychological treatment. Or able to fix Mideast societies or economies - that has to come from within.

If, OTOH, European countries had understood that giving ISIS and Al Qaeda and their affiliates tens of millions of dollars in ransom money was a bad idea - now that could have changed things.

aquad

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 1:57 pm

sequoia wrote:

Hasn't it been widely discredited?

It's been strongly criticized for overreaching on its central argument (it's a political science tract masquerading as a history text). But it still has a lot of strong points, and is a good way to start asking the question of how could people do this?

ora_43

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 2:35 pm

I disagree with the recommendations for The Wave and the Milgram experiment.

The Wave is a fictional version of a real experiment; the real experiment in question was a single study of a non-random sample of people, and did not involve physical violence.

The Milgram experiment is also largely irrelevant IMO. You can't "learn out" from a brief scientific experiment where people were told they weren't causing any physical harm, to a situation where people knew full well that they were committing murder (and for years).

Most people aren't ready to commit murder the minute someone tells them to.

Why people would be willing to murder - like some previous posters said, dehumanization is a big part of it. Other parts - a society that glorifies violence, and a situation that gives free rein to psychopaths.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 10:04 pm

Frum Jews are also heartless and cruel. There is someone who started a rumor about me and now everyone in my community runs into their house when they see me. They stand by the glass doors of the apartment buildings and soon all the other neighbors run into their homes also. I have no idea who started this rumor or what to do about it. I daven every day that they should get what they deserve. I recently moved into the area and wanted to make new friends. Now people stare at me and run the other way. Frum Jews are cruel and vicious.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 10:54 pm

amother wrote:

I am truly sorry for your pain, and I will say a prayer for you, but please start your own thread. Your post doesn't belong in a thread about serial killers who drowned babies in front of their mothers.

amother

Seashell

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 11:00 pm

amother wrote:

Are you the poster that said people point and stare at you in the supermarket a few days ago?

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 11:30 pm

amother wrote:

Are you the poster that said people point and stare at you in the supermarket a few days ago?

Yes. I stopped shopping at my local supermarket so now it's just local neighbors. I did take that suggestion to heart.

As far as the Nazis are concerned, I was taught that during that time period a lot of people used to poke fun at the Rabbis. There were plays in Yiddish making fun of the leading Rabbis of that generation. A lot of children went off the derech. I think it's similar to today.

amother

Tan

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 11:53 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not bashing my fellow Jews, frum and not, but I 100% understand what you mean. No comparison to Nazis, but they were willing and did and do cause me and my family emotional harm which I consider intentfull destruction, based on LH lies.

naturalmom5

Fri, Jan 20 2017, 3:54 am

Actually... it's very apropos for this thread
Nazis at the end of day were gentiles
, possibly amalek

Frum Jews, on the other hand wave the banner as having the monopoly on chesed and compassion. Most of the secular ppl J/nj I knew growing up were far more kind accepting and decent than rank and file Lakewood

I am still roiling and in shock over the walked in thread

Be cruel and vicious to children to get the parent body you think you want for your school. Who cares how many children you hurt or push otd

Be real disgusting in shidduchim. After all, money yichus and type of tablecloth are all that matter

Drive recklessly, lie cheat and steal in business
Never mind that even death doesn't atone for chilul hashem

Just don't masterbate...

ora_43

Fri, Jan 20 2017, 7:14 am

naturalmom, are you seriously arguing that it's more understandable that a German would viciously murder a baby and laugh about it, than that a Jew would cheat at business or socially exclude someone???

Because if so, that's exactly the kind of absurd racist theory that leads to dehumanization.

gp2.0

Fri, Jan 20 2017, 8:16 am

ora_43 wrote:

But the people in the milgram experiment DID think they were causing someone harm. They even recorded screams in advance, and the "victim" protesting that he has a heart condition before falling silent. But the person in charge assured them it was ok. For what it's worth, about 65% of people carried on shocking people until the highest voltage. But even among those people, transcripts show they were attempting to resist, saying things like "this is wrong" and "I don't want to do this" even while they continued to do it. A lot of questions have been raised about why people who realized it was wrong and didn't want to do it continued doing it anyway.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jan 20 2017, 8:20 am

ora_43 wrote:

Of course she is. She uses every opportunity to talk about how frum Jews are the scum of the earth.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jan 20 2017, 8:22 am

sourstix wrote:

No, she's just expressing her pain, and the pain of so many. Which sadly is a common factor in the frum world. Now don't get me started.

Back to the original intent of this thread

Well she should take her pain to another thread.

I am in shock over these comments comparing nasty people (who will get their just punishments) to serial killers and torturers.

If I thought I wanted to vomit before...

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 20 2017, 9:28 am

amother wrote:

First of all, big hugs to you.
Second, this is a different thread. We've discussed this. You will probably appreciate A Divine Madness by Rabbi Avigdor Miller, which I think is an important read. I wouldn't be mekabel this from anyone less than Rabbi Miller.
Even so, it's said that we can't even begin to approach understanding such a catastrophe for at least 40 years after, and even then we must not be facile. What we can learn is not what "yennem" did wrong but what we ourselves need to do to be the best people. We may not be abandoning Yiddishkeit wholesale, and mocking in the process, but have we cleaned our hearts of cynicism? Do we have ahavas Yisrael? Do we try to understand what ahavas Hashem means, in our daily lives?