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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Preschoolers
For those who make their daughter wear tights after age 3
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:18 pm
sky wrote:
didn't read the whole thread - but got to the point where people starting pointing fingers that wearing tights at 3 isn't required.

There are those that do hold it is required.

I recently heard a great speech - that when a person starts wearing shorter skirts everyone keeps quiet for fear of offending or pushing off the person further. But when people try to do more they get told all sorts of things. The person said everyone should mind their own business. who cars if skirts get shorter or tights are required. Everyone should keep their eyes on their own busness.


Disagree.

This is about a three year old baby girl who hates wearing tights. It stirred up a strong reaction because it's about a little girl.

As a general rule, for better of for worse, moms get very worked up about other moms choices with regards to their kids. From cry-it-out to nursing to vaccines to tights on three year olds, the care of children is a touchy subject for moms. When it comes to little kids, most women have a hard time minding their own business. It's natural for us to look out for little ones.

I really don't think putting tights on a three year old is the end of the world, its just tights, whatever, but I wonder why there aren't leniencies for kids who aren't ready for tights and dislike them and are uncomfortable in them.


Last edited by gold21 on Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:21 pm
gold21 wrote:
Disagree.

This is about a three year old baby girl who hates wearing tights. It stirred up a strong reaction because it's about a little girl.

As a general rule, for better of for worse, moms get very worked up about other moms choices with regards to their kids. From cry-it-out to nursing to vaccines to tights on three year olds, the care of children is a touchy subject for moms.


And what about the 12 year old girl who hates skirts.

If a kid has a medical reason or sensory reason they can't wear tights so fine - but to say putting tights on a 3 year old is cruel - I don't understand - what is the difference between an adult and a 3 year old wearing tights - do they over heat more easily?

There are definitely those who hold tznius begins at 3 as straight halacha, not chumra, and not optional. Are you telling them they are wrong? (For the record we don't hold like this, we start some things at 3 and everything else except for tights at 6\7, but I just heard about the sources some use to start at 3 and they are very valid and correct )


Last edited by sky on Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:24 pm
sky wrote:
And what about the 12 year old girl who hates skirts.

If a kid has a medical reason or sensory reason they can't wear tights so fine - but to say putting tights on a 3 year old is cruel - I don't understand - what is the difference between an adult and a 3 year old wearing tights - do they over heat more easily?


I didn't say it was cruel. I mostly just questioned the practice. I didn't denigrate those who practice it.

Anyways, a 12 year old is a bas mitzvah and a 3 year old is a baby. Different obligations.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:26 pm
gold21 wrote:
I didn't say it was cruel. I mostly just questioned the practice. I didn't denigrate those who practice it.

Anyways, a 12 year old is a bas mitzvah and a 3 year old is a baby. Different obligations.


There are some who won't say a bracha in front of a 3 year old who isn't covered. They hold it is halacha - and they are correct. I don't believe we can tell them they are wrong because we hold differently. They have their sources (mishna breura\Chofetz Chaim)
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:30 pm
sky wrote:
There are some who won't say a bracha in front of a 3 year old who isn't covered. They hold it is halacha - and they are correct. I don't believe we can tell them they are wrong because we hold differently. They have their sources (mishna breura\Chofetz Chaim)


Fine, fair enough. If it works, it works, and there is legitimate halachic backing.

But if a kid is miserable in tights, can we agree that there are leniencies available to work with? There are other legitimate halachic viewpoints to rely on if the kid is not ready for tights.
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amother
Mint


 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:53 pm
I would agree to discuss such things with someone who knows family knows Halacha , minhag etc.
When husband feels very strongly it isn't just about the tights. So advice is good from someone who one can turn to. Asking on this forum isn't going to get you the best advice.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:56 pm
sky wrote:
There are some who won't say a bracha in front of a 3 year old who isn't covered. They hold it is halacha - and they are correct. I don't believe we can tell them they are wrong because we hold differently. They have their sources (mishna breura\Chofetz Chaim)


But that's not why OP is doing it, she is doing it bec her dh wants their child to get used to wearing tights now.
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:59 pm
sky wrote:
There are some who won't say a bracha in front of a 3 year old who isn't covered. They hold it is halacha - and they are correct. I don't believe we can tell them they are wrong because we hold differently. They have their sources (mishna breura\Chofetz Chaim)


So this is what I really don't understand but I would like to: why is TZNIUS the thing that kicks in at age 3? Why not brachot, fasting on fast days, davening, waiting 6 hours between meat and milk, etc.?
Unless I can infer here that the reason is because a man cannot make a bracha in front of a 3-year old's bare legs, in which case the onus is on the man, not the child. But if that is the case, I would say: look away. But that's just my personal outlook on it.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 2:03 pm
sky wrote:
didn't read the whole thread - but got to the point where people starting pointing fingers that wearing tights at 3 isn't required.

There are those that do hold it is required.

I recently heard a great speech - that when a person starts wearing shorter skirts everyone keeps quiet for fear of offending or pushing off the person further. But when people try to do more they get told all sorts of things. The person said everyone should mind their own business. who cars if skirts get shorter or tights are required. Everyone should keep their eyes on their own busness.


As others have said, there is no halakahic opinion that anyone needs to wear TIGHTS. There are opinions about covering legs, but there are various way to do that (tights, leggings, long socks, long skirts, etc).
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 2:26 pm
amother wrote:
Squishy I apologize if my post came on strong. Its so sad how we get judged so much on externals that we forget how to just be real. It sounds like a really difficult situation and that you put lots of thought into it. May Hashem always guide all of us to make good decisons.Hugs;)


I wasn't offended, but thank you for apologizing. I think it is hard for people in other communities to relate to the way things are lock-step and the consequences of being original. Some things I will push but I fall into place on the externals.

Some of the solutions suggested like leggings and long skirts are worse than knee-length socks for this community.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 2:34 pm
princessleah wrote:
So this is what I really don't understand but I would like to: why is TZNIUS the thing that kicks in at age 3? Why not brachot, fasting on fast days, davening, waiting 6 hours between meat and milk, etc.?
Unless I can infer here that the reason is because a man cannot make a bracha in front of a 3-year old's bare legs, in which case the onus is on the man, not the child. But if that is the case, I would say: look away. But that's just my personal outlook on it.


Everything does kick in at age 3. Its not just tznius. But for some reason tznius is the only thing people talk about and complain about.
Tznius is just another thing we teach kids to start being careful about, just like brochos and muktza and milk and meat.
Its not done in a way of you're going to hell if you don't. Its done as a teaching thing. Chinuch.

And like all aspects of chinuch you need to know how to pick your battles. If a 3 yr old is tantrumming over wanting a drink of milk 4 hours after meat, or doesn't want to wear socks you need to know how to differentiate between what's important to make a stand on and what's better to give in on this time.
Guidance from someone learned can help make this distinction.
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icebreaker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 2:43 pm
Oh I've always hated tights from the time I was a little kid. My mother made me wear them because of course, "what will the neighbors say?" Rolling Eyes I got away with knee-highs sometimes whether it was to her knowledge or not. I don't wear tights at all now but I'm also more to the left of Orthodoxy than my parents. Neither of my daughters wear tights but they do wear knee-highs and since they wear long skirts, no one can tell anyway. It's something I wouldn't push but I'm pretty liberal so...yeah lol.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 2:48 pm
Squishy wrote:
I wasn't offended, but thank you for apologizing. I think it is hard for people in other communities to relate to the way things are lock-step and the consequences of being original. Some things I will push but I fall into place on the externals.

Some of the solutions suggested like leggings and long skirts are worse than knee-length socks for this community.


Ok well then it's not a halakhic issue at all, more or a social pressure issue.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 4:23 pm
All this talk about underwear showing is why I think it makes much more sense for preschoolers and younger to just wear pants and shorts. How could it be untznius at that age?
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behappy2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 4:42 pm
If your husband's motivation is that your daughter should be happy wearing tights than clearly in this case push it off. On paper he could be right for most kids but in this case my guess is she will resent it. That said I like the idea about finding a company tights she likes.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 4:43 pm
tichellady wrote:
Ok well then it's not a halakhic issue at all, more or a social pressure issue.


My husband and Rabbi see it as a halakic issue. I see it more from a practical point. Probably, most people in my community don't veiw it my way and aren't running to the pediatrician about this.

As I stated my daughter is normally compliant. This was one time she wasn't, so I was very troubled by this. She doesn't resist tights anymore. There wasn't a blowback. She is more makpid about her own tznius than I am about it.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 5:15 pm
Squishy wrote:
My husband and Rabbi see it as a halakic issue. I see it more from a practical point. Probably, most people in my community don't veiw it my way and aren't running to the pediatrician about this.

As I stated my daughter is normally compliant. This was one time she wasn't, so I was very troubled by this. She doesn't resist tights anymore. There wasn't a blowback. She is more makpid about her own tznius than I am about it.


What do they see as a halakhic issue? Legs being covered or wearing tights specifically?
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 5:23 pm
amother wrote:
You want to be machmir on yourself, yay for you. DH wants to be machmir on himself? Amazing. Do not take an innocent 3 year old (baby) and make her do something that is illogical, non halachic, and in my very humble opinion, moronic. Especially if she doesn't want to. Keep this up lady, and you'll be on ima mother 10 years from now wondering why your then 13 year old is going off the deep end.



Yup ... Exactly a few months ago I was stuck in a majior traffic jam coming home from work
So I stopped to look around a jewlry knick knack store
There was a nice girl working there who looked like your garden vareity non Jewish girl from Howell
We got to talking as she was very friendly
Turns out she was really jewish and went to BK for hs.
Tragically, she has been living with a hispanic bf for several years who she claims treats her exceptionaly well. She says she left yiddishkeit completely and told me that if her bf decided to convert to judaism she would leave him.
Her own family has all but disowned her..

Very very sad..since I grew up way oot I don't look frum so these kidsfeel comfortable talking to me
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Ilovemaryland




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 5:28 pm
sky wrote:
And what about the 12 year old girl who hates skirts.

If a kid has a medical reason or sensory reason they can't wear tights so fine - but to say putting tights on a 3 year old is cruel - I don't understand - what is the difference between an adult and a 3 year old wearing tights - do they over heat more easily?

There are definitely those who hold tznius begins at 3 as straight halacha, not chumra, and not optional. Are you telling them they are wrong? (For the record we don't hold like this, we start some things at 3 and everything else except for tights at 6\7, but I just heard about the sources some use to start at 3 and they are very valid and correct )


And if you dont believe her
Look it up yourself in Shaalos Utshuvos Rabeinu. Sky Smile
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 23 2017, 5:53 pm
amother wrote:
Yup ... Exactly a few months ago I was stuck in a majior traffic jam coming home from work
So I stopped to look around a jewlry knick knack store
There was a nice girl working there who looked like your garden vareity non Jewish girl from Howell
We got to talking as she was very friendly
Turns out she was really jewish and went to BK for hs.
Tragically, she has been living with a hispanic bf for several years who she claims treats her exceptionaly well. She says she left yiddishkeit completely and told me that if her bf decided to convert to judaism she would leave him.
Her own family has all but disowned her..

Very very sad..since I grew up way oot I don't look frum so these kidsfeel comfortable talking to me


And she told you that it was because she wore tights when she was 3?

Seriously.

Look, I don't "get" the idea of putting a 3 year old in skirts and tights, when (IMNSHO) they should be in clothing that lets them play more freely. And I don't get what the problem is with leggings and socks, if you want the kid covered. ETA -- not my derech. Not my world. Not my place to criticize.

But I also don't get these dire predictions of OMG, if you force your toddler to wear something she doesn't like, she'll wind up completely rejecting Judaism and whatever else people say. Its a false equivalence.

My guess is that most people who reject Judaism do it for other reasons. Like not believing. Or not wanting to deal with the restrictions as a teen or adult. Or wanting to try things out. Not because they wore tights at age 3.

I didn't grow up religious, but for my first few years in school, girls weren't allowed to wear pants. And yes, my mother made me wear tights, which made my legs itch and break out. It was awful. I begged for knee socks, which my bestie was allowed to wear, but my mother refused. I forgave her. I survived. And as an adult, I found tights that aren't as annoying.

So let's discuss this realistically. Not as "if you make her wear them now, she'll wind up becoming a Wiccan with 93 tattoos," or "if you don't make her wear them now, she'll try to wear a g-string and pasties to high school."
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