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This is for all you anti-feminists.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 1:48 pm
marina wrote:
You always try to convince us of what feminism REALLY is, so I don't see why I shouldn't persuade people to adopt a wider view. Everyone tries to persuade people to see things their way.

Actually, you can count the number of threads I've started on this topic on one hand -- actually, less than one hand, since the number is zero.

So, no, I'm not out advocating for people to view feminism in a particular way; I'm responding to the arguments made by others as well as resisting demonization and mocking of alternate viewpoints.

However, choosing your own definition feminism fits in perfectly. When there is no commonly agreed-upon definition, it becomes possible to constantly move the goalposts. Any flaws in the argument can be rebutted with, "Well, that's not what I meant by 'feminism'!"

In fact, I kind of like that strategy. Maybe I'll try it for my diet. Instead of trying to eat fewer simple carbs, I'll just redefine them! Wish me luck!
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Volunteer




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 8:49 pm
In our generation, we are virtually all feminists. Even those who call themselves anti- feminists. It's a misnomer. Don't we all believe in equal rights and opportunities for women? It seems like the difference is just in the details and add- ons, not the main point about women's rights.

But, like all movements that have been around for a while, there are differences of opinion among feminists about various issues. So, why not just acknowledge that different streams exist within the feminist movement, and move on from there? I am still not sure what exactly we are arguing about, after 5 pages...
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 10:26 pm
Fox wrote:
Actually, you can count the number of threads I've started on this topic on one hand -- actually, less than one hand, since the number is zero.

So, no, I'm not out advocating for people to view feminism in a particular way; I'm responding to the arguments made by others as well as resisting demonization and mocking of alternate viewpoints.

However, choosing your own definition feminism fits in perfectly. When there is no commonly agreed-upon definition, it becomes possible to constantly move the goalposts. Any flaws in the argument can be rebutted with, "Well, that's not what I meant by 'feminism'!"

In fact, I kind of like that strategy. Maybe I'll try it for my diet. Instead of trying to eat fewer simple carbs, I'll just redefine them! Wish me luck!


Actually, what you're saying is "I think I won't call my food plan a diet because Atkins is so unhealthy, it's insane."
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:13 pm
Just finished reading Camille Paglia's new book, Free Women, Free Men: S-x, Gender, Feminism.

Free Women, Free Men: S-x, Gender, Feminism

It contains a number of her famous essays, some of which aren't easily accessible online. Most of the essays are easy reading, and you can jump around if you have a short attention span.

Borrow it from the library if you don't want to spend the $12.99.

Just. Read. It.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:27 pm
Fox wrote:
Just finished reading Camille Paglia's new book, Free Women, Free Men: S-x, Gender, Feminism.

Free Women, Free Men: S-x, Gender, Feminism

It contains a number of her famous essays, some of which aren't easily accessible online. Most of the essays are easy reading, and you can jump around if you have a short attention span.

Borrow it from the library if you don't want to spend the $12.99.

Just. Read. It.


No thanks.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 15 2017, 3:43 pm
So how to say this without being tarred and feathered as an anti-feminist...

Feminism is getting too much credit on this thread.

Modern feminism is an amazing thing and I truly respect all the women (and men) who fought and do fight for women's rights. But - modern feminism did not invent the idea of respecting women, or the idea that women get the short end of the stick in society, or any one of a bunch of similar ideas. Those ideas date back millennia.

And economic reality plays a role. The fact that women are more valued in the workplace in western society is partly due to feminism, yes, but also partly due to the fact that educated women are literally worth more - financially only, of course - in societies where the ability to do hard physical labor isn't a crucial part of making a living. And in less demand as mothers - again, strictly financially/practically speaking - in parts of the world where nearly all children reach adulthood, there is a modern school system, and having sons isn't crucial to surviving past middle age.

I'm not saying feminism doesn't matter or ideology doesn't matter, but - the people of past centuries/millennia weren't psychologically different from us (and the people in non-feminist societies today aren't psychologically different), and for the most part they weren't so stupid as to think XX-chromosomes = dumb, worthless, XY = all of the awesome. But they lived in a very different reality.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 15 2017, 3:59 pm
And since I'm at it, I sort of agree with Fox.

The point isn't "oh well since some people say feminism = intersectional blah blah or feminism = a career, that's the new definition of feminism and so I reject the entire movement."

The point is, let's be realistic. There are many, many women out there questioning other women's right to call themselves "feminist." Kellyanne Conway isn't a real feminist, she talked about giving up career opportunities to be home with her kids. Emma Watson isn't a real feminist, she showed too much of her chest in that picture that one time. The women who made an effort to take part in the Women's March weren't real feminists, because they were about "safe" "white" feminism and not intersectional feminism.

Etc, ad infinitum.

marina, it's like your example with the definition of "OTD." The more hurdles you have to jump to be considered frum, the easier it is to be considered OTD. And the more hurdles women have to jump to be considered feminist, the easier it is for women to just stop labeling themselves "feminist."

Maybe you personally don't set a high bar for "feminist" but I don't see how anyone can deny that the bar exists. And not just on college campuses.

I think relabeling is a better option here than criticism. Like a feminist version of the Chabad model - encourage women by telling them that each little step toward women's rights is valuable, without the pressure to label themselves one way or the other.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 16 2017, 12:21 am
Quote:
Maybe you personally don't set a high bar for "feminist" but I don't see how anyone can deny that the bar exists. And not just on college campuses.


The bar is what's in the video. That's all. Feminism means respecting women, their choices and their bodies. The end. I went to college and grad school and law school. Medical school starting next year (haha jk). I never felt there was some kind of bar that I had to pass. Well, except for law school. LOL

Never wondered if I was a feminist because I had 4 kids or made dinner every night or cleaned the house or had different roles in religion or breastfed and stayed home and ran a day care for a few years when they were little. Never wondered if I was a feminist when I was anti-abortion or when I became pro-choice. Never wondered if I was a feminist because I hated Sylvia Plath and thought my culture classes at college were a waste of time. Never wondered if I was a feminist because I didn't agree with the Entire Left about Everything.

I always knew I was a feminist because I respected women, their choices, and their bodies. That's it.

Now I read imamother and Fox news ( LOL ) and find out that lo and behold, I am not a true feminist because that's only third wave people who hate men and have oranges on their seder plates etc.


Quote:
I'm not saying feminism doesn't matter or ideology doesn't matter, but - the people of past centuries/millennia weren't psychologically different from us (and the people in non-feminist societies today aren't psychologically different), and for the most part they weren't so stupid as to think XX-chromosomes = dumb, worthless, XY = all of the awesome. But they lived in a very different reality.


As for this, I completely 100% disagree. It is so foreign to us, but that's how it was. Blacks were not seen as full human beings. Women were like children and yes, less cognitively endowed, etc. That was acceptable because EVERYONE thought that way. It's not a matter of it being stupid or smart, it was an accepted norm in society. Like today it is an accepted norm that parents tell their children what to do. Everyone thinks this is fine. We do not think our kids are worthless, but we do think they can be dumb sometimes. Women were exactly in this category.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 16 2017, 6:46 am
marina wrote:
I always knew I was a feminist because I respected women, their choices, and their bodies. That's it.

Now I read imamother and Fox news ( LOL ) and find out that lo and behold, I am not a true feminist because that's only third wave people who hate men and have oranges on their seder plates etc.

Do you read up on feminism outside of those two sites? Because seriously, if you read any feminist site, you're going to find arguments over what feminism is. Google "real feminism" or "not a real feminist," etc, see what pops up.

Only when I read imamother do I hear people saying that there's a definition of "frum" that doesn't include me - but I don't assume based on that that anyone who worries about a too-strict definition of "frum" must be deluded.

Quote:
As for this, I completely 100% disagree. It is so foreign to us, but that's how it was. Blacks were not seen as full human beings. Women were like children and yes, less cognitively endowed, etc. That was acceptable because EVERYONE thought that way. It's not a matter of it being stupid or smart, it was an accepted norm in society. Like today it is an accepted norm that parents tell their children what to do. Everyone thinks this is fine. We do not think our kids are worthless, but we do think they can be dumb sometimes. Women were exactly in this category.

You are talking about specific societies, at specific points in time (to use an obvious example. black people weren't considered less than human in Africa... and women weren't considered less than adults in much of Africa, either). And no, not everyone thought that way. There are plays dating back to ancient Greece that talk about how men treat women unfairly, let alone more recent.

Again, not saying feminism/ideology isn't important, but the portrayal of history as "everyone, everywhere thought women are inferior and now everyone realizes they aren't" - no. There were always people who recognized women as equals, but economic + other realities in some parts of the world were such that strict gender roles were very firmly entrenched.
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