"We're not looking for money".

dancingqueen

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:12 pm

Chayalle wrote:

The benefit is advanced knowledge of Torah, and prioritizing Torah before all else.

Many generations ago, it certainly was typical for the vast majority of Jews to be scholars and very knowledgeable in Torah - many would have a business for just a few hours a day, and the rest of the day they would learn.

In the generation of, say, my great-grandparents, there was unfortunately wide-spread ignorance of Torah. I have read many books about European countries, where there were Jews who had tremendous respect for Torah and scholars, but many of them were unlearned themselves. People were really really poor, and worked hard just to put bread on the table, and the suffering they had in the lands they lived in - all this contributed to this. There certainly were those who sacrificed to learn Torah, in every generation.

When a man spends the best hours of his day working, his learning will not be the same. I'm not making this up - I have actually heard this expressed often from people I know who work and are Kovea Itim. I also know those who have the best intentions but after a long day of work, they just don't get to the Kovea Itim...and Sundays, the barely get to learn, family responsibilities end up trumping it.

Chayallah I just don't think that that's true that back in the shtetl most men were very learned or only worked half a day and then learned. Most average people weren't very learned. They had to work all day to survive, often hard physical labor. The rabbi in town would be the learned one and men would learn when they could certainly on shabbos, but it wasn't the utopia you describe.

And I do think the current situation of it being the norm in some community that healthy young men with families would spend years learning while their wife or parents support them would be unimaginable to past generations.

Also in my experiences with grad school/academia, a lot of people have trouble with a whole day devoted to learning. Many do better with a set chunk of time in which to achieve a goal - they're more focused that way.

Chayalle

Thu, Mar 16 2017, 9:35 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Right, by many generations ago, I meant MANY generations ago. We see this, for example, in the Gemarrah. And there have been some, in every generation (even today!). But I agree that in the shtetl, very few were really learned. And yes, supporting a Torah scholar would have been unimaginable to some.

This caused a tremendous weakening in Torah learning. It's not something laudable.

I read a book about a certain pretty well-known (in the yeshiva world) Rosh Yeshiva who grew up really really poor in Pre-War Europe. By his Bar Mitzvah, he barely knew how to read Hebrew. Sometime during his teens, Navardok opened a free yeshiva in his town, and he joined up (before that, there was no way his parents could have paid for a Melamed. They could barely afford that he stopped working and started learning.) Ultimately, he went to Mir to learn, and this saved him from the Holocaust.

I bring this as an example of the level of knowledge that existed in many a shtetl, especially among the poor. (There were exceptions. Poor people who sacrificed and starved while they learned. I read about someone else who went to learn in Baranovitch. The Rav of his town gave him a letter of recommendation, in which he quoted the Gemarrah that says "Hizaharu B'Aniyim Shemehem Tetzei Torah" - be careful of (how you treat) the poor, as Torah will come forth from them).

Most people in the US are not that poor though. Many of us are able to support Torah learning, especially if we are willing to live on a more simple standard. That's been my point in this thread - that many of those who want to be supported by wealthy inlaws are looking for more of a comfortable living standard, than true Torah scholarship.

I have nothing against able bodied men supporting their families if that's what they want to do, especially if they are able to be Kovea Itim. I know people like that and I respect them. I also see the flip side - men who rarely lift a sefer, and life's social and family obligations trump learning.

The crown of Torah learning is not easy to obtain. Never has been.

Chayalle

Thu, Mar 16 2017, 9:40 am

amother wrote:

My issue is that there is no way a young 20 yr old girl can really make this decision from a grounded place , other than from her starry eyed post seminary fanciful dreams that have just been drummed into her.
When real life sets in and pregnancies, babies, and children follow but don't exactly follow the plan (bedrest, multiples etc) what happens then?

So - she IS old enough to make a decision to get married. Just not to someone who is learning?

I agree that a couple's plan should be flexible.

When I was pg with my oldest, DH asked me if I want to change the plan and become a SAHM. He said he would go to work, because I would have a right to that if I want it. I felt we were doing okay, and if we need to re-evaluate, we could always do so.

My mother A"H told me about a certain family from my childhood neighborhood - the husband is a HUGE Talmid Chacham - and the wife told my mother that every night he thanks her for letting him learn another day, and asks her if she's still okay with it.

DH has a few brothers, and most of them went for night classes (either for a degree or some sort of certification) at the point where the pg, babies, etc...came and they saw that they would have to transition from Kollel to working. They don't regret starting married life learning.

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Mar 16 2017, 9:54 am

From my family history - in Europe I feel people sacrificed so much more for their chinuch wihen able.

My grandmother's family lived far from a cheder on a farm, they lived on beans and black bread. Yet, they paid a melamid to live in the house all week and teach the boys. There were 2 bedrooms. The parents slept in the main room, the melamid got the girl's shabbos room and everyone (10-16 children) slept in the other room during the week. You had to climb out the window to use the outhouse. And yet there was money for the malemid.

My grandfather's father was the melamid. He left his family all week to move into a family and teach the sons. My grandfather was sent to yeshiva as a young teen for years. He didn't come home. He memorized so much shas that as kids we were stunned to hear what he had learned as a teen before the war. He worked long crazy hours after the war but everyone who ever learned with him was in awe of his knowledge.

It was definitely a different time with different priorities and different focuses.

PinkFridge

Thu, Mar 16 2017, 10:54 am

Chayalle wrote:

Most people in the US are not that poor though. Many of us are able to support Torah learning, especially if we are willing to live on a more simple standard. That's been my point in this thread - that many of those who want to be supported by wealthy inlaws are looking for more of a comfortable living standard, than true Torah scholarship.

I have nothing against able bodied men supporting their families if that's what they want to do, especially if they are able to be Kovea Itim. I know people like that and I respect them. I also see the flip side - men who rarely lift a sefer, and life's social and family obligations trump learning.

The crown of Torah learning is not easy to obtain. Never has been.

I agree that the standards now have escalated, and some border on ridiculous.
But re your bolded: After the war, we got a Divine kiss with incredible revach. Some canny people are still living off it. But most people in the US these days ARE struggling. Yes, some of the expenses we have now, such as camp (let's leave aside the camp thread and talk about just a few weeks of day camp) may be of our own making. But because of the culture now, it's practically a necessity. Not everyone is living well and Moshiach should come soon but we are facing a serious elder care crisis. To get through old age, one has to be really rich, or really poor, and still live in a state with good benefits. I know people who are taking out second mortgages to pay for their parents' in-home assistance. There are some serious expenses people are facing (like tuition for more children than their parents had), etc.

Relying on parents to help with kollel, as much as the ratzon may be there, is not viable.
Now if you mean by many of us are able to support a kollel lifestyle, the young couple themselves, I can't disagree with that. There are all sorts of possibilities. Some young women will be professional or have advanced degrees. Others may have a starting salary that will make kollel doable if they live frugally, and might have some savings to augment the salary. Among other scenarios. Kol hakavod to them.

(I would love to discuss this in the yeshivish or chareidi forum. I'm really hesitant to let my hair down too much.)

Chayalle

Thu, Mar 16 2017, 10:59 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Now if you mean by many of us are able to support a kollel lifestyle, the young couple themselves, I can't disagree with that. There are all sorts of possibilities. Some young women will be professional or have advanced degrees. Others may have a starting salary that will make kollel doable if they live frugally, and might have some savings to augment the salary. Among other scenarios. Kol hakavod to them.

(I would love to discuss this in the yeshivish or chareidi forum. I'm really hesitant to let my hair down too much.)

Yes this is what I mean. Even for a year or two. Most couples don't starve and aren't being moser nefesh, not half of what went on in the shtetl even among those who worked hard for a living.

If you want to discuss this further in the yeshivish forum, I'm game Smile

PinkFridge

Thu, Mar 16 2017, 11:03 am

Chayalle wrote:

I don't have that much more to say, I just don't know if everyone "gets" what I am saying already, IYKWIM.

ETA: Re couples not being moser nefesh. Sure, it's not like what was done in the shtetl, or even in the earlier Lakewood years. But we have to appreciate that "even" one or two years of kollel can take hard work and planning and should be celebrated. We're in a climate where young men who leave after "just" 2 years are looked down on as lesser (and their wives go through quite a lot of angst too) and it shouldn't be that way.

Chayalle

Thu, Mar 16 2017, 11:31 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Totally agree. I've seen this at both the family and friends' level - where people feel that they are not being supported (I mean emotionally/socially here) when they make that transition. I think people need to be more open-minded and respect the couple's choices - and that goes two ways (when they choose to be in Kollel, and when they choose to go to work).

I expect my girls to make choices according to their abilities and goals in life, and I will respect it.

I do think though it's important to know that while everyone is Moser Nefesh at their own level (and up in heaven it's surely appreciated), most of us wouldn't even relate to what mesiras nefesh meant in previous generations.

For myself, it actually gives me chizuk. I mean, if in the shtetl people could live and raise children on next to nothing (food, clothing, etc..) then I'm not depriving my kids if they don't grow up with steak on the menu (and various forms of entertainment, private lessons, lux cars, travel camps, etc...). As long as they can dress respectfully, have enough access to healthy, nutritious, and delicious food, etc...we are okay and can do this. I keep in mind that the excess that exists today does not necessarily contribute to healthier, happier, more satisfied (spiritually) adults.

And this goes to all those who struggle financially...sometimes it helps to keep in mind that it's okay if we don't have what's out there. We're fine like this. We have enough.

Shlomo Hamelech said "Resh V'osher al titen li". It's actually one of my favorite pesukim. I really believe that it's easiest to raise children with a lifestyle that is neither really poor nor wealthy. Just my personal observation.