Non Jews and seder

Seas

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 1:42 am

SixOfWands wrote:

AIUI, this has nothing to do with the seder.

Even though you can cook on yom tov, you cannot cook for a Jew. The issue then arises about having non-Jews to the meal, as you may be cooking for them. If, for example, the chag (any chag) fell on Shabbat, when you can't cook, its fine to invite gentiles.

So, CYLOR. Some are likely to say its ok, so long as you are careful to ensure that you don't cook on the chag, and use mevushal wine. Others will say no. And leniency may relate to familial relationships. (And, of course, people studying for conversion.)

Because cooking for a non Jew is an absolute no-no, Chazal prohibited even inviting a non Jew for a meal, lest one cooks something for them.

As I wrote before, this is a straightforward issur accepted across the board. In various extenuating circumstances there might be heteirim, but the default halacha is it's ossur.

(It's like saying that according to all opinions driving on Shabbos is prohibited. Yes there are circumstances in which it's allowed, but by default it's prohibited according to all poskim. For someone to state driving on Shabbos is a community specific issur is misguided at best.)

amother

Coral

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 3:18 am

Seas although what you write is technically correct, I think it is important not to frighten the op with black and white statements about isservheter, because her specific situation is very nuanced, and a wise Rav will approach the question with sensitivity. As had already been pointed out, the task question is not as op stated it- is it assur, but rather- what should I do now that they are already invited?. And op, you could even add : "what should I do given that I do not think I can uninvite the guests?". Because you see Seas the is what she really wants to know.

moonstone

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 4:00 am

Seas wrote:

Yes, you've already said all of this a few times. We got it.

Iymnok

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 4:00 am

amother wrote:

This is such a good and sensitive post. Why do you have to go anonymous, I want to really appreciate you!

amother

Lemon

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 5:27 am

A very well respected rabbi invited me to a seder at this house before I was Jewish.

There were many people there so it was not as if anything was being cooked specifically for me. No individual, counted out portions of chicken etc.

The seder took place on Saturday evening so obviously everything had been cooked in advance.

I was required to do some "work." I arrived after Shabbat went out and helped to wash the dishes in preparation for the seder. Other (Jewish) guests arrived early to help too so it wasn't as if I was singled out for this.

About the wine, there is no "extra" rules about wine and non-Jews at the seder. The same rules apply as the rest of the time which is that an open bottle non mevushal wine is rendered not kosher if touched by a non Jew. There is no problem for a non Jew to touch an opened bottle or glass of mevushal wine. At the seder I was invited to, non mevushal wine was served but someone else poured my cups (as well as other people's, so again, there was no big deal made about the fact that someone else was pouring it.)

But as others have said, just speak to a Rabbi and I'm sure there will be a way to accomodate your guests :-)

zaq

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 5:55 am

Is there a special rule for a person studying for giyur? Because when I hosted a person who was in the process, my rav said it was no problem whatsoever. Granted my budget doesn't run to non mevushal wine but still...I didn't have to make any special arrangements and the young lady didn't have to do any melacha in my house. Whatever melacha she chose to do, she did in her own home.

Iymnok

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 8:33 am

In the community I grew up in, one year there there were a lot of almost converts. They made their own Seder since they knew already that there are problems with them being guests. It was a family and a few singles. An interesting mix, but I heard it was very nice.
They had appropriate instruction beforehand.

salt

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 9:10 am

This is all really interesting.
I had never heard that on yom tov one shouldn't cook for non-jews.
I had heard that a non-jew cannot take part in a Seder, and I had always assumed it's because of the verse
כל ערל, לא יאכל בו
no uncircumscised shall partake of the korban pesach.

animeme

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 9:12 am

The seder definitely has its own issues. The essence as I understand it is that it is blanket-assur for a no Jew to eat from the korban Pesach. Our seder today doesn't have a korban Pesach, but still revolves around the idea, and the afikomen is basically our insufficient replacement. So some say don't invite or have non Jews at all. Some say you can't invite but if they show up, they can stay- hence the work-around mentioned above. Some say it's only the afikomen, and you can work around it by not giving them any of it (I've seen other matzah substituted, without being obvious).

ValleyMom

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 10:13 am

I cannot imagine a non jew willingly coming for the Seder "meal" being that we sit at a formal dining room table set absolutely beautifully and we don't see a morsel of anything remotely edible for approximately 2 hours.

Have you seen any stand up comedy on what a passover seder is like for a non jew- their routines are absolutely hysterical.

That being said I have an Episcopalian friend who is like a sister to me and she joined us one year for seder and never ever came back for another opportunity to experience a Peach seder.

I cannot imagine why ;-)

amother

cornflower

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 10:17 am

animeme wrote:

Thank you. This is what I was looking for.
We already had asked about chagim in general- we have had them previously on Yom tov itself. So we know it's not ok to cook (luckily my oven has an automatic shut off so I can't! And we won't keep a burner on the stove on for safety reasons). Hot plate it is, like any other shabbos! And mevushal isn't an issue either- hard to forget that one.
So any other issue is perhaps about eating the afikomen. We invited the Jewish spouse as well.
And thank you for being understanding.

amother

cornflower

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 10:26 am

Seas wrote:

Please don't post in forums asking for help for family situations. You are not helpful.
Besides, you are wrong. There is almost nothing in Halacha that is as clear cut as you make it out. Even without looking for heterim, there are always dissenting opinions, beis Hillel vs beis Shamai. To have such black and white thinking causes you to miss out on so much of our nuanced and highly complex religion.

Seas

Tue, Mar 21 2017, 11:26 am

amother wrote:

Your post is quite unfair, as it ignores the fact that in every one of my replie to this thread I've suggested OP asks a rav. In fact that is the only advice one should give her in this case.

As I wrote before, and despite someone posting to the contrary, the issur of inviting a non Jew to a yom tov meal is unequivocal. There are no dissenting opinions whatsoever. And please don't tell me "we got it already" as it's evident from the poster above me that not everyone got it. You cannot just make up halacha based on whims.

That said, there's are heteirim in various extenuating circumstances, but for that you need to ask a rav.

OP, as your husband is a BT, I'm sure he's got a rav of whom he's asked all his shailos on the past. Let him discuss it with him. An internet forum of anonymous women is not the place to get halachic decisions.

LittleDucky

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 12:46 am

Saw this on the OU website...

"We may not cook or bake for a non-Jew on yom tov. One who has a non-Jewish servant may add food and cook it all in one pot so that there will also be enough for the servant. (He must not specify that he is adding for the servant – Mishnah Brurah 512:11.) For an honored non-Jew, however, one may not even add. (We are concerned that one will do extra for an honored guest – see MB 512:10.)...."

So it seems it is ok (ask your LOR though!) to cook for an "undistinguished" guest that you won't be cooking special food for them. Family may or may not fall under that category :-)

And On another site:
"Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach also records that the custom of old was to invite non-Jewish dignitaries to the Pesach Seder; this was apparently important to promote good relations between the Jews and their non-Jewish neighbors or hosts (see Shulchan Shlomo, Yom Tov Vol. 1, p. 207, note 8)." (Din online.org).

So Halacha isn't as clear cut as some make it out to be.

Sorry, accidentally exited the pages before I could get the exact URL.