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Why כל דכפין ייתי וייכול כל דצריך ייתי ויפסח?



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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 12:00 am
The non-jewish guest for seder thread triggered a thought in my head: I find it interesting that we open the seder with the following: (In Ha Lachma Anya)

כל דכפין ייתי וייכול כל דצריך ייתי ויפסח- I believe translated this means: Whoever is hungry should come and eat; whoever needs to should come and make Pesach.

It seems that there are two different invitations happening there. One is for people who are hungry, and another is for those who are obligated to fulfill Pesach. Why do we need two different invitations? Wouldn't it be enough to just say "Whoever has to should come and make Pesach?", which would necessarily include eating, as you have to do Maror and Motzei Matza?

I can think offhand of a number of possible reasons for that (maybe it's saying, even if you're not hungry, if you're obligated, you should still come make pesach; maybe it's an invitation to two different groups of people, but if so, who is included in the "hungry, not obligated" group? Is it children? Is it other groups of people who aren't obligated in Pesach?) Anyone have insight?
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smss




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 12:27 am
ויפסח means to partake in the קרבן פסח, I think.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 12:31 am
you know in שמע we say Hashem is our God Hashem is one - אחד when moshiach comes the entire world will acknowledge the oneness

perhaps in order to get there we need to find a way to unite the world - what better way than to share our history - כל דצריך ייתי ויפסח let us open up to them פסיחה same shoresh ... we will then join together in creating a more loving peaceful world that could thrive on bringing godliness into every aspect of our lives making a dwelling place for Hashem ... ועשו לי מקדש ושכנתי בתוכם


Last edited by greenfire on Tue, Mar 21 2017, 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 12:32 am
I understand it a bit differently -
The first part: all who are hungry shall come and eat
The second part: all who are in need shall come and have the korban Pesach.
The second part can also be understood in this way: all who are in need shall come and skip over (meaning, if you need to, skip the food). This may refer to unwell people for whom eating is problematic. We know there are people who, for example, can't tolerate matza, whether gluten or gluten-free. Unwell people do better with less food.
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smss




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 12:48 am
Also, there are those who say it's not really an invitation (especially since the Seder has already started...it's a little late to invite people), it's an expression of cheirus- slaves own nothing and can't invite guests. Now that we are free people we can do that.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 1:15 am
Interesting answers - thanks for your input! Of course, there's always the catchall-so the children should ask Very Happy
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 1:36 am
The second part was said during the times of the beis hamikdosh (and then it was said erev Pesach morning, as one had to be 'counted' on the korban prior to its slaughter). The first part was added after the churban, when sadly we can only offer food.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 1:36 am
Apparently Chazal "mished." Wink

It could be to remind us that first we feed the hungry, and only then do we tend to their religious needs.
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Volunteer




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 1:38 am
In the days when the korban pesach was offerred, participants had to register with the temple (usually in groups) before the korban was made. It was a way for each participant to actively be counted in for the performance of the mitzvah. Hence, even back then, you couldn't just pop into a host's house on seder night and fulfill the obligation. Today, we have no korban pesach, so the line in the song is a wry lament that, now, there is no need to register, and we fulfill the remaining obligations of the seder night on the fly. All we have left is a regular meal to share, and some extra matzah stands in for our ersatz pesach.

Sorry that interpretation is a bummer.

As the song acknowledges, this year, we are still not yet free in exile. But, next year, in Jerusalem!
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amother
Scarlet


 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 2:39 am
Volunteer wrote:
In the days when the korban pesach was offerred, participants had to register with the temple (usually in groups) before the korban was made. It was a way for each participant to actively be counted in for the performance of the mitzvah. Hence, even back then, you couldn't just pop into a host's house on seder night and fulfill the obligation. Today, we have no korban pesach, so the line in the song is a wry lament that, now, there is no need to register, and we fulfill the remaining obligations of the seder night on the fly. All we have left is a regular meal to share, and some extra matzah stands in for our ersatz pesach.

Sorry that interpretation is a bummer.

As the song acknowledges, this year, we are still not yet free in exile. But, next year, in Jerusalem!


Wow I heard that explanation in seminary 24 years ago. I've never heard anyone else quote it since then (except me!)
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 4:15 am
amother wrote:
Apparently Chazal "mished." Wink

It could be to remind us that first we feed the hungry, and only then do we tend to their religious needs.

Very Happy
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chicco




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 9:13 am
In the times of the Korbon pesach, everything needed to be planned to the portion. Everything was allotted before the actual Korbon was shechted. There also was not allowed to be any extra. It was simply impossible to have uninvited or last minute guests. When we say kol dichfin we are highlighting our loss of the korbon. Hey is anyone hungry? You can come...it's not like we have to worry about the Korbon pesach. The phrase is not actually an invitation. If we meant it, we would have started the seder that way before kiddush.

Eta- like volunteer said.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 9:18 am
ויפסח here obviously doesn't mean the korban Pesach.

The paragraph is in Aramaic. It was said by Jews outside of Israel, who were obviously not bringing the korban Pesach. The paragraph ends, now we are here, next year in Eretz Yisrael.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 16 2017, 8:00 am
Volunteer wrote:
In the days when the korban pesach was offerred, participants had to register with the temple (usually in groups) before the korban was made. It was a way for each participant to actively be counted in for the performance of the mitzvah. Hence, even back then, you couldn't just pop into a host's house on seder night and fulfill the obligation. Today, we have no korban pesach, so the line in the song is a wry lament that, now, there is no need to register, and we fulfill the remaining obligations of the seder night on the fly. All we have left is a regular meal to share, and some extra matzah stands in for our ersatz pesach.

Sorry that interpretation is a bummer.

As the song acknowledges, this year, we are still not yet free in exile. But, next year, in Jerusalem!

I meant to post a small correction to the above at the time but didn't get around to it, but remembered this during one of the holiday meals. As far as I know, people did not register with the temple - they formed groups on their own before the sacrifice was done. That doesn't affect the rest of the explanation.
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Sun, Apr 16 2017, 8:03 am
my husband said that you had to be "registered" because it was a karban, you had to be in mind when the animal was being sacrificed.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 16 2017, 8:33 am
amother wrote:
ויפסח here obviously doesn't mean the korban Pesach.

The paragraph is in Aramaic. It was said by Jews outside of Israel, who were obviously not bringing the korban Pesach. The paragraph ends, now we are here, next year in Eretz Yisrael.

Jews in spoke Aramaic in Israel during the Second Temple period, so this line could have been said then (but in advance, not at the Seder), or it could have been composed later. The earliest I've been able to find this phrase appearing is during the Gaonic period (we have one full and one partial haggadah from then), that's too late to tell when this paragraph or its individual sentences originated.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 16 2017, 8:49 am
chocolate amother wrote:
my husband said that you had to be "registered" because it was a karban, you had to be in mind when the animal was being sacrificed.

If he wants to say "registered" I don't object. My comment on Volunteer's post is that groups were not, as far as I know, registered with the temple.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Sun, Apr 16 2017, 8:50 am
imasoftov wrote:
Jews in spoke Aramaic in Israel during the Second Temple period, so this line could have been said then (but in advance, not at the Seder), or it could have been composed later. The earliest I've been able to find this phrase appearing is during the Gaonic period (we have one full and one partial haggadah from then), that's too late to tell when this paragraph or its individual sentences originated.


Sorry I wasn't clear. The fact that it's in Aramaic doesn't mean that they were outside Israel. It's the line השתא הכא etc. that tells us it's not being spoken in Israel.
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