Help! My 11 year old son is lying and stealing

amother

Salmon

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 8:50 am

It must be difficult to have a son who lies and steals and you feel helpless to change him. Hug

My only advice is to get him a hobby that can satisfy his desire for excitement. He would probably enjoy high stimulation activities like roller coasters and white water rafting and skiing.
Perhaps if he gets a thrill elsewhere he wouldn't lie and steal to get it.
Also be sure to tell him that you will never punish him if he admits to doing something wrong. But if he lies he will be punished for lying not for the act he was trying to cover up. He will eventually realize that being honest is an easy way out of trouble and you need to keep your word until he has the habit of honesty firmly under control.

Good luck.

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 8:54 am

amother wrote:

It must be difficult to have a son who lies and steals and you feel helpless to change him. Hug

This is actually very good advice. Thank you.

Chayalle

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 9:11 am

As someone with a somewhat challenging child, and having been quite a character myself, once upon a time...I really believe that it's important to avoid shaming your son in any way, and avoid power-struggles.

It's probably better not to corner your son, even when you clearly know he has been lying and stealing - because then he will deny it, as you say - until he gets really cornered - and then he gets used to lying and putting on an act. Better not to put him in the position of continuing a lie. Chazal tell us "Adam Nifaal K'fi Peulosav" - a person tends to act like the actions he reinforces in himself - so the more he is determined to lie, the more he will lie in the future. Better to just make some sort of statement without a discussion (we know you took $$$ to buy candy and we are disappointed) - don't even give him the opportunity to respond with a lie.

I don't really think you need to get him to admit his actions at this point. And it's very important to give him the opportunity to be able to earn $$$ to choose some of the things he craves - even a limited amount of sweets. Better for him to get these things legitimately than behind your back.

At some point, B"EH, he will develop the self-control and determination to come clean and be honest. You just need to get him to that point, while keeping him emotionally healthy and doing your best to limit the negative actions.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 9:28 am

amother wrote:

I remember my brother once buying something with the change from grocery and telling my parents he lost the money.
Nu nu did he get for that "lie".
Yes There was a very relaxed 'controled' atmosphere in the house. My brother grew up to be a successfull husband and parent thanks to the fact that he moved overseas after his wedding away from this relaxed place where he wasn't believed or accepted.
Thanks to his wife who had the capacity to see the good in him he got another chance in life.

Posts like these never cease to leave me scratching my head. What does your home have to do with ops home? You have already made yourself judge and jury. Whatever op says you will twist to your narrative. You know best, and that's that!

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 9:34 am

Chayalle wrote:

I've been quietly following this thread because I am dealing with similar situation. I love this point of view and advice and am going to try hard to change my behavior and not be so confrontational and give more opportunities for DS to get what he desires in legitimate, honest ways.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 12:33 pm

momX4 wrote:

My parents dealt with this same problem. They solved it immediately by giving all of the kids weekly spending money.

So how do you explain rich kids who lie and steal for the fun of it? Kids who are spoiled rotten, and show no remorse? They just get better at not getting caught.

OP, you mentioned ADHD in your original post. Have you scheduled an evaluation for him? That would be my very first place to start, if I were you. Like I said before, it might not be his fault at all, if his brain isn't getting the right messages.

Please watch the video I posted. It will give you a lot of hope and validation.

amother

Apricot

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 1:41 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Different amother. For the 2nd time in a week money has disappeared from my wallet. I know who is taking it, and it's not because he doesn't get spending money. I told ALL of my children tonight that if the money is not back in my wallet by Friday there will be no allowances because I'm going to have to use the allowance money to cover whatever it was that the missing money was supposed to cover.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 1:58 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Some kids are missing something in their life...and stealing may fill that void, even if they have access to money.

I used to steal - when I was about age 7 - 9 years old. I come from a large family, and my needs were totally ignored.....I had a special needs sibling right after me, and another special needs child was born during this time period....with all the challenges, my parents were just spread to thin, and they expected me to be way ahead of my years, to help out with my younger siblings at a level far beyond my age. The expectations of me were like that of a teenager, at the age of 8...I cooked, did laundry, cleaned, babysat, you name it.

So everyone out there had things I wanted and had no access to...snacks, cute accessories, candy, etc...it seemed so unfair to me that my charming, pampered classmates had these things while I had hand-me-down clothes and a stressful home. I stole to relieve the stress. I stole $$ and bought the snacks I craved on the way to school, and when I had no $$, I just shoplifted from the grocery. I also stole accessories from other girls by coming to school early and visiting other classrooms.

At some point I decided I wouldn't be a thief anymore, and I stopped stealing.

I believe kids steal when they feel deprived, and they don't have the maturity to handle it.

saw50st8

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 1:59 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Rich kids often steal for different reasons. Not all theft is the same. I knew a rich kid who stole for the thrill of getting caught. It was like a high to her.

amother

Slategray

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 2:42 pm

amother wrote:

We actually just had an interesting idea - DH and I. We thought that maybe we would give him a certain amount of money each week to put in a piggy bank, and to be used only with our ok (I don't want him buying sweets). This would be for helping a certain sibling who needs social help. This way, he would be able to save his own money while giving to someone else. Maybe win-win all around. DH said to tell him that it's mine and his secret and that noone else knows about it, including DH. He wants me to be the "yemin mekarevet".

Sorry I'm not impressed by this idea because won't it just put him in a position to be tempted to steal from
the piggy bank? And where's the reward for him if he doesn't steal it, since anyway it just goes to another sibling. And honestly it sounds like you guys overreacted to him stealing and sneaking a pizza, I'm not surprised he lied so vehemently. You got some really good advice here. I think the key thing is to stop looking at him like he's just this problematic, conniving child. He is only a kid after all. Seems like he is different from your others which means you need a completely different approach with him than what worked with your other kids. Just something to keep in mind.

amother

Olive

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 4:30 pm

amother wrote:

It sounds like the parents are paying him to help another child, not that the other child gets the money.

I do think stealing is a big issue that parents should be involved in figuring out. I'm pretty impressed the parents are brainstorming how to address the issue and not just ignoring it and hoping it would go away and trying to be creative. I think it is wonderful.

I'm just wondering why he can't get sweets. I would think to discuss with him creating a goal to buy something big but if he does want to blow it on sweets then what is so bad?

amother

Babypink

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 4:51 pm

amother wrote:

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean that the money would go TO the other child. It would be reward money for helping his sibling socially. He would be earning it by being nice to another person.
We didn't over react. I wasn't even involved. His teenage brother confronted him and told him he saw him at the pizza shop and he vehemently denied it. My husband stepped in to mediate and it escalated. As you may know, family dynamics and all. He is not lying and conniving BECAUSE we think he is. We have come to some pretty obvious conclusions based on his behavior. You can't just put your head in the ground and pretend someone is acting like a real tzaddik when he's not. You CAN tell the child that he's a wonderful neshama and has the potential to be a real Tzadik. We are not sending him negative messages all the time. He gets plenty of positive ones.
Why on earth do you think we overreacted btw? Did I say someone screamed at him or beat him up? Just because someone is a kid means that it's ok and legit to just lie blatantly?

dancingqueen

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 5:14 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

This. Op I would think the first step would be getting your kid accurately diagnosed and to get him the help he needs if ADHD is suspected.

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 5:28 pm

1. Get him evaluated by a developmental pediatrician. If he has ADD, treat it.

2. IGNORE the lying and stealing. It's the hardest thing to do, but it's the only thing that works.
He is 11 years old.
He knows it's wrong to lie and steal.
He doesn't need you to tell him that.

The guilt he feels afterward is the best punishment and it is the only thing that will get him to stop eventually, even if it takes months.
When you punish him or criticize him - or even just mention that you know he lied or stole it actually eases some of his guilt because he feels like he was punished and therefore "cleansed" of his wrongdoing.
When you ignore it, he is forced to face his own guilt and to stew in it, and he will eventually mature enough to stop.

We had the same issue with lying and stealing and this was the best advice we got and the only thing that worked.

3. Make sure he has his own spending money and can have treats at least once a week, so he won't have as much of a yetzer hara to lie and steal. Your idea of paying him to help his brother was excellent!

4. Daven Smile

amother

Red

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 5:55 pm

amother wrote:

1-His teenage brother is not his father and should not be confronting him about anything. Seems like there is some jealousy involved or something but the teenage brother needs to stop talking Lashon Hora about his younger brother to you and he def should not be investigating anything the 11 year old does as it is none of his business.

2- He is 11 and is not responsible for the behavior of the older sibling who has social issues. Get the older sibling a therapist to help him with his problems and leave the 11 year old out of it completely.

3- Give the 11 year old a weekly allowance and let him decide how to use his money. Open a bank account and make a deal with him that you will match the amount of money he has left over each week that he puts into his account. This way you get him to save some of his money and allow him to still be in control over it. You can also tell him that you would deduct an x amount of money from his weekly allowance for every lie that he says which will make him accountable for the lies as well.

4-Find things about him that you can complement him on, tell him you love him, spend some alone time with just him and do some fun stuff that he likes and give him positive attention as much as possible so that he wouldnt need to resort to doing things that will get him negative attention which is what he seems to be getting (any attention is better than no attention in his eyes so if it could be positive attention then he wont need to act out anymore).

Hope that will solve the problems you have with him.

wondergirl

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 6:36 pm

amother wrote:

I'm against the lying. If he would ask me for pizza there is a possibility I would allow it. What we have been very makpid on lately is limiting his sugar intake because sugar makes him crazy. Of course he really craves it (and he's not an overeater. He just loves candy and soda, but they don't love him).

I have no way of knowing if he's stealing from friends. I know that he is a real leader. Very charismatic.

His principal complains that he's got a very smug attitude, which is very possible. I don't think he's stealing in cheder. But he is a bit of a ringleader/trouble maker, if you know what I mean. It's not a simple situation. He's not a goody two shoes. I won't say that I spend tons of time with him because he comes home at 6 every day, but I think the home atmosphere is really a good one. He's the first child that is bringing out a sternness in my husband that was never necessary in the past. We never lose our cool with him though and there is certainly no hitting. Yesterday, he told us in the car that a certain survivor's story on the radio made him cry. My husband answered him that he made us cry. That was certainly a conversation stopper. Crying

The bolded is very harsh and painful for an 11 year old to hear from his father and completely inappropriate especially given the context of the conversation. It would be humiliating and invalidating to anyone, let alone a child. Is this how your husband relates to him all the time? If so, then he needs to get some serious help before things get worse. It seems like this son is triggering something in your husband which is what is causing him to react in a negative manner even when the situation doesnt call for it (as in this case). I would suggest individual therapy for himself, therapy together with his son or perhaps even family therapy with everyone in the family to help you understand what the root of this problem is and how to deal with it appropriately without causing anyone any further harm.

You also say that you are restricting his sugar intake which is very difficult for anyone let alone an 11 year old boy. He is surrounded by sugar in school and at home but is not allowed to have any which is frustrating. Does he have a healthy way to deal with his frustrations about it? Does he have a healthy alternative to turn to when he has cravings? Because if he doesnt have a way to deal with his cravings or his frustrations about being restricted from eating the same food that everyone else is eating then he will act out which seems to be happening. So I am not sure if the sugar is actually causing him to be crazy because not having the sugar is not helping either so my guess would be that something else is going on and based on everything else you mentioned, it seems like there is some kind of family dysfunction that needs to be dealt with instead of making him out to be the scapegoat of everything that is wrong at home. Def find a good family therapist so that you can figure out the root cause of all these problems instead of blaming an 11 year old for any of it.

wondergirl

Mon, Apr 24 2017, 6:41 pm

amother wrote:

My home has one of the most relaxed atmospheres I have ever seen. Noone controls anyone. My teenage son just so happened to ride by the pizza shop at 6 pm when my 11 year old should have been just getting home from cheder. He saw him very clearly. When asked about it the 11 year old DENIED BEING THERE and called his brother a liar.

Does your teenage son come home at the same time as the 11 year old? If not, then what was the teenage son doing riding his bike near the pizza shop at 6pm instead of being in yeshiva? If they do usually come home together, then why did the teenage son not go into the pizza shop to join his brother for a slice before coming home together?