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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Divorce or Annulment?
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doctorima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 10 2017, 12:43 pm
amother wrote:
If so why don't you let you daughter or son have premarital sx. If it's permitted?


amother wrote:
but a halachically Jewish bf, while not halachically allowed if they're not married, does not render her a halachic zonah.



Which part of "while not halachically allowed if they're not married" wasn't clear enough?
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Wed, May 10 2017, 12:48 pm
keym wrote:
According to many Rishonim(according to my dh) a woman who has premarital relations, is oiver a derabanan and gets malkos from bais din even if she went to mikva. However she is not given the name zona. That's reserved for a woman who had relations with a [gentile], or had relations even forced with any of the forbidden men listed in parshas acharei mos.
BTW, even though it's way off topic from the OP, it's very interesting and relevant as this weeks parsha, parshas emor is all about who the kohen and kohen gadol can and cannot marry.
The important thing is that it's not about feelings or opinions. The torah tells us clearly what's assur or not. And even if we would like to call a woman with 378 premarital partners a zona, halacha does not unless any of them were a [gentile]. And if a woman with only one partner who is a [gentile], she is called a zona.
And a zona doesn't literally mean harlot.


And what about the man she slept with?
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agreer




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 10 2017, 1:56 pm
Super curious....why can't a divorcee marry a cohen if she was legally permitted to sleep with him and never slept with anyone else?
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amother
Orange


 

Post Wed, May 10 2017, 2:06 pm
amother wrote:
And what about the man she slept with?


He can't marry a cohein either. LOL
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 10 2017, 2:19 pm
agreer wrote:
Super curious....why can't a divorcee marry a cohen if she was legally permitted to sleep with him and never slept with anyone else?


Written straight out in the Torah. Try Sefer Hachinuch if you're looking for a more hashkafic reason.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Wed, May 10 2017, 2:20 pm
Whoa, I go out to run a few errands, and come back to this!

I just asked because I heard the word annulment somewhere, and wasn't sure what was involved, and if it might be better for both of us. Now I know that it's not.

Great discussion though, I didn't even realize it went with this week's parsha.


As to whether DH is Autistic or abusive, I'm not going to get into that discussion. I pray you never have to ask yourself about those issues. Marring a cohen is the least of my worries right now. If I ever want to marry again, Hashem will provide.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, May 10 2017, 3:40 pm
This is a question of whether it is a "mekach taut".

An annulment can be given in the case of 'mekach taut' - that the marriage was undergone under false pretenses - I.e. it was a mistake based on the fact that before the marriage, fact X existed, and had spouse A had known fact X about spouse B, they would not have married. The question is whether an unknown, but pre-existing condition would fulfill the requirement. For sure if your spouse had known and had hidden it from you, it would have been a mekach taut. But if he didn't know and you had no way to know, I don't think it's considered a mekach taut. Only a rabbi could tell you for sure.

More importantly, annulments are almost never granted, and even in cases where maybe they could be, it is still very rare that they will allow you to annul.
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Orchid




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 10 2017, 6:40 pm
amother wrote:
My sibling was in a similar situation. The Bais din ruled that since the spouse had stayed with the spouse and lived with them after knowing about the mental issue, they could no longer proceed on the grounds of 'mekach taus'- a mistaken purchase.

In other words, by staying with the spouse for several weeks after knowing about the diagnosis, my sibling signaled that it wasn't a given that they for absolute sure wouldn't have married them with this condition.

This was how the Bais din's ruling was explained to me at the time. Being that I wasn't the involved party, I may have some details wrong.


I have heard this as well. If, when the woman finds out about the previously hidden flaw that had she known she would never have agree to get married, and doesn't immediately separate from him, but continues to live with him, then she is "accepting" the flaw. And is therefore barred from claiming "mekatch taus." So according to this approach, the basis for annulment is extraordinarily narrow.
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amother
Gray


 

Post Thu, May 11 2017, 12:33 am
I don't mean to start a whole discussion.
I read all about what the Rabbanim say about the mekach taos heter. I read it in several languages.It bothered me to no end because I thought there was a heter and that I could have done it. But I found out its not muttar. I didn't want to do a get because I feel marriage is holy but unfortunately it ended and I took a get.

Bottom line all Rabbanim and batei din are against this heter. I am glad I took it the kosher way.

I hope this girl finds a solution for her husband speedily.
Hatzlacha
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 11 2017, 12:41 am
amother wrote:
I don't mean to start a whole discussion.
I read all about what the Rabbanim say about the mekach taos heter. I read it in several languages.It bothered me to no end because I thought there was a heter and that I could have done it. But I found out its not muttar. I didn't want to do a get because I feel marriage is holy but unfortunately it ended and I took a get.

Bottom line all Rabbanim and batei din are against this heter. I am glad I took it the kosher way.

I hope this girl finds a solution for her husband speedily.
Hatzlacha


I'm sorry for your experience but it is not true that all rabbanim And batei din are against this heter. I personally know people who got it. It depends on the situation and not up to us to judge the details of the case. That's up to the beit din. It's usually exceptional but there is definitely halakhic precedent for it in specific cases. It is wrong to say it's not kosher
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 11 2017, 12:43 am
Orchid wrote:
I have heard this as well. If, when the woman finds out about the previously hidden flaw that had she known she would never have agree to get married, and doesn't immediately separate from him, but continues to live with him, then she is "accepting" the flaw. And is therefore barred from claiming "mekatch taus." So according to this approach, the basis for annulment is extraordinarily narrow.


First of all, this is one opinion. There are others.

Second of all, why are you assuming that she continued to live with him and accepted the flaw? That is not always the case. I know someone who left her husband after she found out about his violent past and then her marriage was annulled.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Thu, May 11 2017, 1:43 am
amother wrote:
I don't mean to start a whole discussion.
I read all about what the Rabbanim say about the mekach taos heter. I read it in several languages.It bothered me to no end because I thought there was a heter and that I could have done it. But I found out its not muttar. I didn't want to do a get because I feel marriage is holy but unfortunately it ended and I took a get.

Bottom line all Rabbanim and batei din are against this heter. I am glad I took it the kosher way.

I hope this girl finds a solution for her husband speedily.
Hatzlacha


Just so you know, mekach taut is not just a heter. Annulment of marriage goes all the way back to the gemara. Most rabbanim won't grant an annulment anyway because annulment is a very serious case, because it doesn't just mean that you are suddenly not married anymore, it means that essentially you were not married the whole time. This has many other ramifications as well, and that's why it is very rarely granted by rabbanim.

But annulment isn't just a modern heter that someone came up with, it has a very deep and old halachic basis - just like everything else in the gemara. So please don't say that annulment isn't kosher, as the great chachamim from the time of gemara already discuss annulment.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Thu, May 11 2017, 10:56 am
amother wrote:
My friend annulled her marriage within the past decade. If can be done, depending on circumstances. You need a very specialized Rov. She went to R' Nuta Greenblatt in Memphis.

Definitely annul, if possible. It enables you to marry a Cohen.


There are many, many Poskim who disagree with that psak. By not pursuing a get, she has jeopardized shidduchim for any future children she may have.

Personally, I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 11 2017, 11:06 am
amother wrote:
There are many, many Poskim who disagree with that psak. By not pursuing a get, she has jeopardized shidduchim for any future children she may have.

Personally, I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.


I'm sure they wouldn't be interested in marrying into your family either. Not everyone can get a get (hence the agunah crisis) and there is no reason to put down the holy batei din who are actually trying to do something about the agunah crisis and are not afraid to use halakhic precedent and reasoning (when possible, of course) to help unchain a woman so she can go on and remarry and have children etc.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 11 2017, 11:35 am
A Cohen can marry a widow.

Annulment... unless you are davka looking into marrying a Cohen you already know and love, I'd not go that route. It might davka close more doors.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Wed, Jun 28 2017, 10:29 am
Op, I married someone on the spectrum. It is not easy, especially if he is not receiving guidance from a professional. If he is aggressive or abusive its because they do not know any other way to express themselves. Yet there is no excuse for it. Please seek help. There are so many resources for him available now. It is a very hard battle which will never end. I don't Know how long I can last! But the only thing keeping me are the kids.. Pm if you like.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Thu, Jun 29 2017, 7:24 am
amother wrote:
Op, I married someone on the spectrum. It is not easy, especially if he is not receiving guidance from a professional. If he is aggressive or abusive its because they do not know any other way to express themselves. Yet there is no excuse for it. Please seek help. There are so many resources for him available now. It is a very hard battle which will never end. I don't Know how long I can last! But the only thing keeping me are the kids.. Pm if you like.


Thanks, but I can't PM you. I'm posting anon, and so are you. That disables private messaging.

If you post under your SN, I'll PM you. I really can't use my SN here, in case anyone here might recognize my DH.
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