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rlm









  


Post  Thu, May 18 2017, 11:22 pm
STMommy wrote:
Dunno. I found the Loehmanns dressing room pretty icky growing up!


Pretty icky and utterly hilarious at the same time!
Respectable looking individuals would walk in and then look so unrespectable so quickly

It was mostly Russian older ladies who walked around undressed in the locker room at the local jewish pool
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tichellady









  


Post  Thu, May 18 2017, 11:49 pm
mddm wrote:
I understand, so much of this is what we are used to. Do you care to elaborate as to what you mean "you grew up with very little privacy"?


No, it's not relevant here. The point is I have no qualms about undressing in front of other women, my husband, the doctor, etc. but I have friends for whom this is quite a struggle
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sky









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 12:14 am
mddm wrote:
Would you bring your teenage daughter to such an environment?


In the JCC growing up the older women always walked naked from the showers - a large open room - to the locker room
We actually had dedicated changing rooms areas with privacy curtains but it was mainly the BY girls using those.
we averted our eyes but its not like we were seeing things that we didn't have ourselves.
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seeker









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 12:51 am
I really don't understand people's train of thought here. Because we all know what women's bodies look like, therefore it's unnatural to be uncomfortable with nudity? By that reasoning why not walk around at work with nothing on, there's no one there who doesn't know what's under your clothes.

And was that tongue-in-cheek about teaching teens to get used to it because they will encounter it in adult life? Sorry but it's a little hard to read sarcasm in a forum like this. On the other hand if you're serious... what? If I feel something is inappropriate then I should make sure to show my kids more of it so they will be properly desensitized well before they have the freedom to make their own choices about what to see? How little do you think of your kids that you don't think they'd be able to figure out how to deal (?) with seeing nudity when they grow up? Especially since you also said that it's no big deal since you know what's under the clothes anyway. OK, maybe I'm doing this all wrong and this part was sarcastic, because otherwise I really don't get it.

Completely beside the point of the actual issue in question, I'm flummoxed by these lines of reasoning.
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tigerwife









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 12:58 am
tichellady wrote:
No, it's not relevant here. The point is I have no qualms about undressing in front of other women, my husband, the doctor, etc. but I have friends for whom this is quite a struggle


This sounds like how some women cannot bear to show a bedikah cloth to a Rav while others are chilled with even sending in underwear. What's the big deal versus how can you not care?!
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tichellady









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 1:03 am
seeker wrote:
I really don't understand people's train of thought here. Because we all know what women's bodies look like, therefore it's unnatural to be uncomfortable with nudity? By that reasoning why not walk around at work with nothing on, there's no one there who doesn't know what's under your clothes.

And was that tongue-in-cheek about teaching teens to get used to it because they will encounter it in adult life? Sorry but it's a little hard to read sarcasm in a forum like this. On the other hand if you're serious... what? If I feel something is inappropriate then I should make sure to show my kids more of it so they will be properly desensitized well before they have the freedom to make their own choices about what to see? How little do you think of your kids that you don't think they'd be able to figure out how to deal (?) with seeing nudity when they grow up? Especially since you also said that it's no big deal since you know what's under the clothes anyway. OK, maybe I'm doing this all wrong and this part was sarcastic, because otherwise I really don't get it.

Completely beside the point of the actual issue in question, I'm flummoxed by these lines of reasoning.


There's a time and place for nudity. I don't think it's bad to undress in a locker room, so I don't have a problem with my teen getting used to that. If you think it's a terrible thing, then I understand why you wouldn't want your teen dealing with it. I expect my teen will go to gyms and swimming pools in teen or adult life and this will be something she has to deal with. I don't prance around naked in the Lockeroom of my gym but you are expected to change
In public (there are no private rooms) and you can only wear a towel in the steam room ( to be clear: the locker room is for women only)

Places where I consider standards for nudity or dressing more skimpily than usual to be fine: at the mikvah, the doctors office, childbirth, swimming in a pool, relaxing in a sauna, steam room or jacuzzi, the bedroom, during a private massage, while getting a wax, lockerooms, spas, etc
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tichellady









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 1:06 am
tigerwife wrote:
This sounds like how some women cannot bear to show a bedikah cloth to a Rav while others are chilled with even sending in underwear. What's the big deal versus how can you not care?!


Yes, exactly. I grew up with very little body shame (very medical family) and I am just very open about these things. I have other areas where I struggle.
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essie14









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 3:06 am
tichellady wrote:
There's a time and place for nudity. I don't think it's bad to undress in a locker room, so I don't have a problem with my teen getting used to that. If you think it's a terrible thing, then I understand why you wouldn't want your teen dealing with it. I expect my teen will go to gyms and swimming pools in teen or adult life and this will be something she has to deal with. I don't prance around naked in the Lockeroom of my gym but you are expected to change
In public (there are no private rooms) and you can only wear a towel in the steam room ( to be clear: the locker room is for women only)

Places where I consider standards for nudity or dressing more skimpily than usual to be fine: at the mikvah, the doctors office, childbirth, swimming in a pool, relaxing in a sauna, steam room or jacuzzi, the bedroom, during a private massage, while getting a wax, lockerooms, spas, etc

Exactly. I dress appropriately for the event.
I have no qualms taking off my clothes for a doctor's exam, a waxing, or swimming. I swim in a regular swimsuit when it's all women. Not a kosher swim dress. I dunk in the mikvah naked with a woman watching me.
I do not go to the mall in a swimsuit.
I don't go to the beach in a wedding dress.
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 3:22 am
OP why davka teen age daughters? We go to women's swimming hours here, in our local pool, me, my daughter, my mother, my nieces, all together. None of the girls are over 10. Its just not a big deal. If they find it "yucky" we tell them that some women are comfortable taking everything off and getting dressed in the dressing room while other ladies go to the curtained off dressing rooms.
Its just not made to be a big deal.
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JoyInTheMorning









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 5:09 am
Tichellady writes:
Quote:

There's a time and place for nudity.


Yes, with your husband. And when you're alone in the bath or shower. Otherwise, I'm with OP; I just don't get it.

Back in the Loehmann's and Syms days, I always wore a camisole and half slip under my clothing, so when I tried on clothing in a communal dressing room, I was still always covered. As far as changing into a bathing suit, I try to do that in private, but if I have to do it in front of other women, there are ways of doing it that don't reveal much. You put on the bottom of the bathing suit underneath a skirt; you put your coverup over your shoulders while changing the top part, etc.

To me, tzniut isn't just about what men see; it's about not parading around your body to anyone. Even to yourself: I would never walk naked in my house even if I was alone, had heavy curtains on the windows and skylights, and had barricaded all the doors.
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shyshira









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 7:39 am
seeker wrote:
I really don't understand people's train of thought here. Because we all know what women's bodies look like, therefore it's unnatural to be uncomfortable with nudity? By that reasoning why not walk around at work with nothing on, there's no one there who doesn't know what's under your clothes.

And was that tongue-in-cheek about teaching teens to get used to it because they will encounter it in adult life? Sorry but it's a little hard to read sarcasm in a forum like this. On the other hand if you're serious... what? If I feel something is inappropriate then I should make sure to show my kids more of it so they will be properly desensitized well before they have the freedom to make their own choices about what to see? How little do you think of your kids that you don't think they'd be able to figure out how to deal (?) with seeing nudity when they grow up? Especially since you also said that it's no big deal since you know what's under the clothes anyway. OK, maybe I'm doing this all wrong and this part was sarcastic, because otherwise I really don't get it.

Completely beside the point of the actual issue in question, I'm flummoxed by these lines of reasoning.


I wasn't being sarcastic - I was trying to draw out what OPs concern was.

If OP is not comfortable changing in public (Halachically or otherwise), that's fine. Many women aren't. So if there is nowhere to change privately, I can understand not wanting to use these facilities. It was the focus on the teenage daughter, and should she take her to such a place I was addressing. Is she concerned about how her daughter can change modestly, or seeing naked women? I suppose if it was the latter, I was challenging, why?

Seeker - if you don't want your daughters in such change rooms, you wouldn't ask should I go? (and I respect that). You just wouldn't go.
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mddm









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 8:36 am
shyshira wrote:
I wasn't being sarcastic - I was trying to draw out what OPs concern was.

If OP is not comfortable changing in public (Halachically or otherwise), that's fine. Many women aren't. So if there is nowhere to change privately, I can understand not wanting to use these facilities. It was the focus on the teenage daughter, and should she take her to such a place I was addressing. Is she concerned about how her daughter can change modestly, or seeing naked women? I suppose if it was the latter, I was challenging, why?

Seeker - if you don't want your daughters in such change rooms, you wouldn't ask should I go? (and I respect that). You just wouldn't go.

Yes, everyone has the freedom to do as they please and choosing to let it all out there in a locker room is their right. However, should they be conscious of others around them... for ex. teenagers or younger who come, as well as from a modesty standpoint is it appropriate from women to be in a state of nudity even amongst only women.
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shyshira









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 10:32 am
mddm wrote:
Yes, everyone has the freedom to do as they please and choosing to let it all out there in a locker room is their right. However, should they be conscious of others around them... for ex. teenagers or younger who come, as well as from a modesty standpoint is it appropriate from women to be in a state of nudity even amongst only women.


why is it different for a women to be changing in front of another woman compared to a child or teenager? I don't understand the distinction.

To the question of is it appropriate from women to be in a state of nudity even amongst only women? I'll say this. I've never been to a frum development swimming pool change room. I would probably also be surprised to find that the change room wasn't set up with lots of private booths, and as a result very little space , if any, to change 'publicly'. So if I saw what you saw, I'd likely conclude that there is no halachik tznius issue....atleast not by those who hold by whatever the community standard is.
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singleagain









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 10:49 am
mddm wrote:
Yes, everyone has the freedom to do as they please and choosing to let it all out there in a locker room is their right. However, should they be conscious of others around them... for ex. teenagers or younger who come, as well as from a modesty standpoint is it appropriate from women to be in a state of nudity even amongst only women.


I fundamentally disagree with the bolded. Forget about this specific issue for a moment. Unless you know FOR A FACT that someone has a trigger, you are never ever responsible for someone else's triggers.

It is not your fellow locker mate's responsibility to consider how her state of undress is going to affect another person. Instead, it is the other person's responsibility to know how to look away.
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cm









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:14 am
I know nothing of "frum developments," so take this as an outsider perspective.

At my (secular, culturally diverse) gym, there are some private dressing stalls but not many and they are cramped. Many people change in the open dressing area. Most turn toward the lockers when undressed and change quickly. Some people walk around naked, but not the majority.

I think people realize that "normal" behavior in a locker room is not exactly the same as at places such as banks and supermarkets. Even so, I have never seen any exhibitionist or lewd behavior in a locker room. People just do what they need to do and move on.

Is it bad for children? On the rare occasion that children are present, sometimes they choose to change in a stall, or they learn the matter-of-fact quick change in front of the locker, and learn not to stare at people.
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shyshira









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:17 am
singleagain wrote:
I fundamentally disagree with the bolded. Forget about this specific issue for a moment. Unless you know FOR A FACT that someone has a trigger, you are never ever responsible for someone else's triggers.

It is not your fellow locker mate's responsibility to consider how her state of undress is going to affect another person. Instead, it is the other person's responsibility to know how to look away.


I don't think this is a trigger issue. If the social norm is its okay to be nude in front of women, but not girls, then yes its reasonable that people should behave within those norms.
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singleagain









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:22 am
shyshira wrote:
I don't think this is a trigger issue. If the social norm is its okay to be nude in front of women, but not girls, then yes its reasonable that people should behave within those norms.


I don't know... This might be a nother example of varying milage, as some girls are more sheltered than others... And unless you personally know the girl, how Are you supposed to know what's reasonable?
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anonymom









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 1:31 pm
I guess no one said this because it's so obvious

I don't find it hard to change while exposing very little. Under clothes or towel for the most part. That's what most frum women in my pool do. And I would be quite taken aback to see my swimming buddies prancing around naked. It bothers me more if it's someone I know.
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MagentaYenta









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 1:34 pm
Hmmm, I'm a user of locker rooms. If you are changing on the bench facing your locker, it's pretty hard to see those naked ladies prancing about. Mind your own freekin' business and stop gawking.
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sequoia









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 2:01 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
I would never walk naked in my house even if I was alone, had heavy curtains on the windows and skylights, and had barricaded all the doors.


Why?

I would like to understand.

Also it's funny what you said that it's ok to be naked with your husband...so as soon as he's not home you have to get dressed?

Surely if you can be naked around another person (even if it's your spouse), you can be naked by yourself?

But perhaps there's a line of reasoning I'm missing.

Also good for you that you have skylights.
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