Help with our Daughter

amother

Blush

Sun, May 21 2017, 3:18 pm

amother wrote:

OP here. So do you think shabbos is optional in your house for your kids, because they may become resentful and stop keeping it. What about kashrus? I'm not being inflammatory, I'm really trying to work this out.
And do I go out and buy say Haagen Daaz if we hold strongly about chalav yisrael? At what point do I get to decide what rules my 11 year old keeps in my own house?

You wrote that YOU consider it Halacha but other yidden don't. That's code for chumra. You didn't write that you live amongst non jews. That would be very different. If you give more details we may get off track and at the same time we may also be able to help you more. Or maybe you disagree with us and you think it is more important to stick her with a Chumra than do right by her.

iyar

Sun, May 21 2017, 3:49 pm

amother wrote:

Shabbos is optional for children of a certain age at our house. We don't try explaining muktzah to an 18 month old playing with a musical toy, and that same child is allowed to sleep or play through kiddush and hamotzi and not join us at the table. When children are old enough they learn at home and in school that Shabbos is an integral, joyous part of who we are.
I don't know what chumra you're dealing with as you won't say, but it may not be appropriate for an 11 year old.
Make your daughter proud of who she is and of her family, but let her tell you when she feels ready to take on whatever chumra it is that's hard for her.
If your issue is chalav yisrael, you don't have to buy Haagen dazs to keep in your own freezer, but you might want to tell her she can join in and buy some next time she's out with friends who are all having the same.

amother

Gray

Sun, May 21 2017, 3:57 pm

didn't read the whole thread but the topic of family chumrash came up in a conversation with our shul rabbi. He says when his kids are younger he makes a point of trying to make them proud of how their family does things, chumrahs included but as they get older and peer pressure gets stronger if they feel like for example cholov yisroel is something that they really can't handle (most people where we live don't keep cholov yisroel but the rav does) he tells them that it's ok and that when they are ready they can take it up again. As others have said please speak to a rav who is understanding.

mamaleh

Sun, May 21 2017, 4:29 pm

I know that the OP did not specify what area she is talking about but I wanted to point out that she might not be talking about a chumra.

Growing up I was told (or at least it was implied) that keeping Cholov Yisroel was a chumra. As I got older and learned about it in school and seminary, I learned the truth. Cholov Yisroel is the HALACHA, Cholov Stam (or more correctly, Cholov HaCompanies) is a KULA that Rav Moshe, zt"l wrote for America at a time when it was difficult to obtain Cholov Yisroel.

There is a big difference between Halacha vs. chumra and kula vs. Halacha. The fact that many in America don't realize that it is a kula, and believe that CY is a chumra does not change the emes!

If this is the issue that the OP is dealing with, it is very different than talking about a chumra she wants to impose on her daughter.

(Additionally, there are Rabonim who hold that CS these days might actually be treif because of the surgical procedures that are routinely performed on dairy cows. If OP's Rav holds this way, then we are talking about her daughter wanting to eat what she considers treif. This is very different then her daughter not wanting to keep a chumra)

I, honestly am not looking to get into a debate, and bl"n will not comment further if it becomes that, but I just wanted to point out that the overall assumption that she must be talking about a chumra, might be incorrect.

OP, wishing you much hatzlacha and nachas from all of your children!

animeme

Sun, May 21 2017, 4:51 pm

I'll give a tznius example. We hold halachah to require covering knees and elbows. We require knee socks/tights/covering of the legs and feet, but that is a chumrah (or halachah when in a place everyone does it.) Ok, so if dd ends up in a school that allows no socks and sleeves and skirts lengths that end a tefach away from knees and elbows, where is my flexibility? I allow the no socks, but knees and elbows still must be covered.

Ok. That said, at this age, you need hadrachah from your rav that lays out the entire situation. Some teens need to be told, "This is the halachah. What you do with that knowledge is between you and Hashem." Some advise that the teen be required to follow the halachah in your home but can make their own choices outside it.

If this is a tznius thing, Rebbetzin Spetner recommends spending real money on your dd's clothes. If you're saying no a lot, and she chooses a skirt or dress that meets your tznius requirements but not your traditional clothing budget ones, stretch the budget and buy it. Let her be proud of her brand name trendy clothes, and she'll be less resentful that the hemlines are a bit longer than those of her friends. Take the money from elsewhere is your budget, because it is worth the investment.

tichellady

Sun, May 21 2017, 7:33 pm

mamaleh wrote:

This is not the point of the thread but I don't agree with how you are representing this. Do you think cholov Yisrael cows are not dairy cows? The fact is cholov yisroel is now a Chumrah in the West because there is a different reality today with governmental regulations than in a place where there is no regulation.

tichellady

Sun, May 21 2017, 7:41 pm

I think the details are actually very relevant here. I agree that you should talk it out with a mentor. I don't think you have to make changes in your home for her, like for example buying Hagen daaz but that's different from telling her what ice cream she can eat when she's out with friends.

Totally anecdotal- I was talking to a holocaust survivor who grew up chassidish and I asked her if her family ate gebrokhts on pesach when she was a kid. She told me her father didn't but he would never impose that on his wife or kids. She told me that in her community growing up many people took personal chumrot on but not for their whole family. That made a lot of sense to me

amother

Salmon

Sun, May 21 2017, 8:15 pm

tichellady wrote:

Your opinion. Not a fact AT ALL.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, May 21 2017, 9:26 pm

tichellady wrote:

This is the way that the vast majority of mainstream Orthodox Jews practice all over the western world which makes it normative halakha

One only has to keep the big three in order to be classified as Orthodox so it's a bit of a wide yardstick in determining the majority...

The truth is OP that this isn't a question that can be presented to the general Imamother audience because everyone is coming from different places. And we don't even know what specific things you're referring to. Your best bet would be to discuss with a mentor in real life who is experienced in chinuch and also identifies with the path you have chosen.

Chayalle

Sun, May 21 2017, 9:42 pm

Don't know if the following will help you OP, but I heard this story from my parenting mentor, Mrs. L. Trenk of Lakewood.

She said there was a woman she knew whose family moved OOT. They were makpid to eat only Chalav Yisrael. Their daughter was 11, the year her whole class was becoming Bas Mitzva approached and most of them were non-Chalav-Yisrael venues. She was feeling very left out and resentful.

They asked a Rav and he told them that THEY were the ones who chose to move OOT and put their daughter in that situation. He felt that it was not worth pushing this. So they told their daughter that while their family would continue to be makpid in the house, she could choose to eat at her friends' houses and Bas Mitzvah affairs.

So the girl went to a party and came home and told her mother the food was "nothing special....and in any case, we don't eat non-Chalav Yisrael, anyway".

Once it was her choice, what was out there was suddenly not so appealing, and she made the choice to keep her family's standard.

OP, have you discussed with your Rav how your child feels about this, or was this just a point-blank "what's the halacha" type of question? Did you ask your Rav for ideas about how to implement this? Does he have experience dealing with this kind of sheila? IMVHO it sounds like you need a mentor/Rav that gets your particular situation, and understands your child's struggle....otherwise, you risk throwing out the baby with the bathwater...quite literally.

Wishing you much Hatzlacha....

Chayalle

Sun, May 21 2017, 9:47 pm

amother wrote:

I am asking for advice about my 11 yr old dd, but I'm deliberately keeping some of the details vague. My husband, I, and rav hold that a specific thing is halchikly obligated, something that many of my neighbors and friends don't do. My daughter feels very uncomfortable keeping it because "none of my friends do it" but she acknowledges how important it is to my husband and myself.
Have any of you btdt, how did you handle it.
I don't want to get into what this "chumra" is because I deliberately don't want to get into a debate about whether or not it really is necessary. And in my experience everything gets turned into such a debate. Chalav Yisroel, Yoshon, Secular books, stockings, skirt length, bike riding, driving, whatever.
So really I'm asking how do you encourage an 11 year old to do something that her friends don't do and she doesn't want to do. Especially since she is at that age where she doesn't want to do anything different at all from her friends, down to shampoo brand, bedtime, and what's for supper.

the short answer for today's day and age is, you move to an area where her friends are doing the same as you are encouraging her to be doing.

Why do you live in a place where your 11 year old has to deal with being different from her friends? How is it fair to expect her to keep a different standard than what she sees everyone else doing?

I live in a town where just about every school has rules that are within a range I'd be comfortable with L'halacha...and there are still challenges. For this reason, I choose to send my kids to schools where I'm pretty much in the middle. Peer pressure is such a strong factor today, that it's hard to be successful in Chinuch if you are starting with the premise of expecting your child to be different.

imasinger

Sun, May 21 2017, 9:52 pm

amother wrote:

I think the bolded is really the heart of your issue.

You are afraid of the slippery slope.

I'm curious, OP. Do you happen to read the parenting/chinuch columns in any papers or magazines? The Yated has frequently addressed this kind of scenario.

Your wisest move would be to ask for hadracha. Do you have someone you are comfortable asking?

amother

Taupe

Mon, May 22 2017, 1:29 am

mamaleh wrote:

I really dont want to burst your bubble

But

1... If you hold of the medical procedures on cows stikl Torah..then according R Y Auerbach R Forceimer and others tge OU can't be relied on for anything

2...Small heimish cholov yisr farms have a much big problen than large g yish farms with huge runs
The only permissable situation is where there is a huge farm with a CS run on one side and they separate all the treated cows and walk them over to a smaller farm that does CY

Even that is questionable

Better to stick with goat milk where 70% a ruba nikar is present of untreated animals

DVOM

Mon, May 22 2017, 1:06 pm

OP, this is difficult. I just read through everyone's replies... It's very hard when your family rules go against your community norms.

My boys go to a school where most of the kids have some sort of DS/nintendo type thing to play on, and where most of the kids watch occational tv/movies. We don't. This isn't a religious restriction, which perhaps makes the conversation less emotionally charged. My husband has ADHD, as does my brother, so we know poor focus and attention is in our genes. We also know how terrible screen time is for a developing brain, so we have a blanket no electronic game/tv rule. My oldest son is definitly campagning for screen time, and isn't impressed with our explination as to why we're against it. We do let him play wii and playstation at his grandmother's house, and he's watched movies by friends. We try to make our home fun and relaxing without that stuff. We spent alot of time outdoors and spend alot of time playing together. My boys' friends love coming to play at our house, despite the lack of electronic entertainment, because we really do have alot of fun. Still, I wonder how much longer we're going to be able to say no and still have the reward outway the cost. We aren't there yet, but I think that at some point in the future we're going to have to allow some (supervised and timed) screen time.

We don't know what the chumra is, but is this the hill your willing to die on? Before you draw battle lines, I'd be very sure that what your fighting for is worth it.