DH gave DD a ridiculous directive, how to deal

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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sequoia

Mon, May 29 2017, 10:10 pm

amother wrote:

Crust I love the line you wrote that nothing justifies this punishment.

That is an eye opener. Your dd was trying to be nice. And it also looks like you run your house basically how you want it. Why was he so overinvolved?

He has issues and is not rational. He needs to realize she's not organized. But why can't she clean after herself? It's a lesson for her. He is impulsive and punitive. (Immature). Can she apologize to him and tell him she will clean up? Is he stubborn and his word doesn't Change?

Can she work with him? I don't know your dh. He needs to be around so you guys can negotiate. Can she speak to him in the morning? This became a mess that should not have.

Will he regret what he said tomorrow? (Like me)

Does he care that you will not have any help? Does he care how you feel? Why does he get involved and get irrational? Don't involve him. You sound more rational. He needs to learn some stuff. But you need to stand up. If you can. You know him.

Oh good lord.

No one was "involving" him! He saw the kitchen and totally lost it.

amother

Cyan

Mon, May 29 2017, 11:18 pm

crust wrote:

You don't have to talk to him so officially.
Send him a text informing him of what you are doing.
I also don't believe in having an adhd child having to clean after you. Pure turture!! That's not the simchas yom tov you want To engrain in her.

she said the kid cooked and does not clean up after herself, not that she has the kid clean up.

but you know what? with two parents working in our house, often more than full time, our adult child and almost adult child are expected to clean up after themselves and sometimes us too. because we work 15 hour days. and we just can't. so sue me.

Chana Miriam S

Mon, May 29 2017, 11:19 pm

OP, why is he punishing YOU?

asmileaday

Mon, May 29 2017, 11:44 pm

Op you say he won't be around all day. So why can't dd help you and you'll work it out later with dh?

amother

Rose

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:04 am

Just spoke to DH. He claims he didn't say she "can't" cook at all. He claims he said "I don't want you to cook if you're not going to clean up after."

I wasn't there but it's totally within the realm that he would have forbidden her to cook altogether. It's also possible that he said what he claims he said and that DD feels bad (and unappreciated for helping out and being "paid back" by people being mad at her) and is not willing to "commit" to cleaning up after herself and so is saying "fine, then I guess I can't cook."

She also, even if she does want to and plan on cleaning up after herself, is not fully capable at this point of cleaning up to his standards so I kind of understand why she wouldn't want to put herself in that situation . . .

Ugh, how did I get stuck in middle of all this?!!?

Now what? Do I cajole her into cooking (which I really need her to do) and just clean up after her (which I would have done any how and was more than happy to do)? She's not mad at me, just I think feeling hurt and unappreciated (by DH). . .

MagentaYenta

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:07 am

amother wrote:

She also mentioned she didn't mind doing the clean up.

"she's kinda disorganized and when she cooks/bakes for me she makes a huge mess. . . I still find it helpful (that she's cooking), even if I have to clean up etc after her. (And yes, I know I have to work on getting her to be "cleaner").

The problem as expressed by the OP is not her daughters ability to clean behind herself in the kitchen but her husbands foisting an inappropriate solution to something the OP doesn't view as a problem.

amother

Rose

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:07 am

andrea levy wrote:

OP, why is he punishing YOU?

Because he said it impulsively, without thinking about how it would impact me. I don't think he did it to punish me (although it's not out of the realm of possibility, as I said in my OP, he's mad at me because I did not keep the kitchen sufficiently clean enough for him yesterday) but in any event, to the extent that he did think about it (impacting me) he probably thinks I should be supportive of him and now is probably even madder at me that I am "on her side" (which I am) Crying

amother

Blonde

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:10 am

I wrote earlier that I feel your DH is being a bully. I sense an attitude from you of always backing up DH no matter what, and even though in theory this is a good idea, I just sense that you are allowing subtle forms of abuse to go on unstopped. Could this be possible?

amother

Rose

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:13 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

This is correct. Although to be fair, I do think DD has to learn to be cleaner/more organized etc but her not being so is not something I would ever dream of punishing or reprimanding her for. She's an awesome teen with many talents and abilities but this is just not her strong point. She isn't making a mess because she's lazy and obnoxious. She's just limited in that respect. Of course I will try to help her advance in that area but in the interim I try to be mindful of my expectations and appreciative of her many wonderful qualities.

amother was responding to another poster that was responding to another poster that . . . suggested I have DD not cook but only clean up after me. Someone responded that making an ADD kid solely clean up (an act they don't enjoy or excel at) would be pretty awful. I agree with that and also said I would not find her cleaning up after me to be a help any way (for obvious reasons). . .

MagentaYenta

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:17 am

amother wrote:

You are doing major cooking. If the kitchen wasn't up to his standards he should have politely asked you how he could help. I don't have problem with your DD making a mess in the kitchen and you cleaning it. I have a serious issue with your husbands sense of entitlement. He sounds like a dysfunctional boss. He issues an edict, that makes no sense, without you being able to discuss it with him. It's very punitive and doesn't sound like something a partner would say. Nor is the behavior that of a partner.

Last edited by MagentaYenta on Tue, May 30 2017, 12:19 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Rose

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:18 am

amother wrote:

I don't think so but I guess anything is possible. What abuse would you consider this to be?

I'm curious what you would suggest doing in this situation.

(The ironic part is that DH complains all the time that I DON'T back him up enough and I undermine him blah blah blah because I don't always say I agree with him. . . )

amother

Blonde

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:26 am

I don't know what you should do, and I'll admit I'm being "triggered" by the story.

Not up to his standards?

What if you said to him "your income is not sufficient and not up to my standards. I will not continue to let you (do x, (and maybe I really do mean "x")) until you can bring I'm a proper income that allows ne to have a cleaner to clean the kitchen to Your standards"

Now you would NEVER say that, right, (nor should you) because it sounds abusive and mean.

But that's what he is doing to you and your daughter.

sequoia

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:33 am

amother wrote:

(The ironic part is that DH complains all the time that I DON'T back him up enough and I undermine him blah blah blah because I don't always say I agree with him. . . )

Not ironic, exactly what abusers do.

crust

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:45 am

amother wrote:

Now what? Do I cajole her into cooking? She's not mad at me, just I think feeling hurt and unappreciated (by DH). . .

You continue with your plans unchanged. You tell her I love the way YOU cook. I will clean up afterwards. you have an excellent taste in cooking. I can't give up on it. Then leave it up to her to decide.
If she tells you she's scared; tell her that you will always (please do!) understand her and stick up for her. (although if I'd been that girl I probably would rather not cook stick up or not... Moichel tovos the sticking up for me... no need to break it and then have to fix it...)
Tell her I love you regardless if you decide to cook or not. But we have to take serious action around this. this cannot continue to happen. You are worth better treatment.

The bottom line is that you don't want your daughter to think that she's not worth better than this.

I wish you lots of Siyata Dishmaya. Please take care of yourself also. I'm not so convinced that he treats you like a malka... Hug

amother

Rose

Tue, May 30 2017, 12:47 am

crust wrote:

I'm OP. I love your advice and will iyH follow it tomorrow.

Thank you!

tichellady

Tue, May 30 2017, 1:42 am

Kind of tangential advice, not related to your husband, but in general I would encourage her love of cooking and not focus on the cleaning so much ( not totally ignore it either, but not make a big deal if she is trying) . She has her whole life to clean but if she can develop a love of cooking that will definitely be helpful as a frum Jewish woman where whether we like it or not there is often an expectation for us to do a lot of cooking! My parents didn't push the cleaning part and I was able to expirement and have fun cooking and I think that if I had to focus on the cleaning I would have been seriously turned off. Eventually I figured out how to have a clean kitchen and I also learned that I should hire a cleaning lady on Fridays. Just my two cents, feel free to take it or leave it

FranticFrummie

Tue, May 30 2017, 2:03 am

OP, does your DH ever clean up or help you with any housework, or does he just sit there and criticize?

Your DD sounds like a wonderful girl. I have an ADD teen, and she also leaves messes around. It takes lots of time, patience, and training to get her to remember to put the ice cream back in the freezer, so it's not ruined for everyone else.

When I taught her to cook, I also showed her how to clean up while she was going along. If something needs to simmer for 15 minutes, then you have 15 minutes to do some dishes or wipe down the counters. If she's doing prep work non stop, then obviously cleanup will have to wait. I don't let her out of the kitchen until it is clean to our satisfaction.

If she's fixing something on her own, I have no control over that. I'm asleep and she's having a midnight snack, then yes, there will be a mess in the morning. That's life with kids!

It sounds like because your DD is so awesome in other ways, he's making the mistake of assuming that she is capable of being awesome in every other way. It's easy to do with kids who show a lot of maturity and responsiblity. You forget that they are KIDS, and not smaller adults.

The average teen will only be capable of doing about half of what you would expect from an adult at the best of times. If you set your expectations too high, you can do a lot of damage. Teens will give up trying, and start thinking that they will never be able to please you. This destroys self esteem, and they will go through life settling for second best, because they think that they are not good enough to deserve more. Trust me, I know. That's the message my mom sent to me. Crying

I paid a small fortune and spent years getting over it.

One incident will not destroy her and send her to therapy, but a pattern of this from DH most certainly will. You need to nip this one in the bud NOW.

odchai

Tue, May 30 2017, 2:13 am

whoah! you need to tell him (calmly, privately) to stay out of the kitchen if it bothers him. that your DD helps you as she should and learning these kitchen skills are valuable lessons for her in the future. He should not be interfering with your method of how you get the cooking done and by the time you light candles the kitchen will be clean and neat again, until the next time that is! These are the drawbacks to living in a house with others, mess happens!!

amother

Khaki

Wed, May 31 2017, 4:44 pm

As a woman with ADHD, I just wanted to say that I think you should help her learn how to manage the cleaning up aspect - it may be easier for both of you to have you clean up after her, but teaching her to clean up for herself in a way that she can manage is a much more valuable skill in the long run. No one really taught me these things, and I'm in my 30s and still can't clean up properly after cooking for shabbos. . . This has nothing to do with your DH, but has everything to do with teaching your daughter to be an independent, functioning adult and feel good about her abilities. I'm sure your daughter does not feel good about her self for being 15 years old and not be able to do something as simple as clean up a kitchen - now imagine how she will feel when she's 35 and still can't do it. Helping her find a system which allows her to clean up by herself will do wonders for her self esteem, and teach her the life skills she needs to have her own household in the future.

And frankly, in my opinion you need to find a way to tell your DH that he has caused major damage to her self esteem and now he needs to make up for it by helping build up her self esteem (if not about cleaning the kitchen, than about something else). You can't imagine how hard it is to feel bad about your abilities (or lack there of) and then have a parent make it sound even worse than you thought it was.

So, back to some tips to help her clean up. Here's what works for me (only took me 20 years to figure it out). I designate the table or an isolated counter for cooking. It doesn't matter whether it's the convenient, it just needs to be self contained. Then, I put out a big plastic disposable tablecloth (plastic is important, as the cloth disposable ones let liquids through to the table surface) to completely cover the surface. Then, I prepare everything on the tablecloth. I use as much plastic ware as possible. Once the food is in the oven/stove, I put away all the food ingredients in a cabinet (and I have one cabinet designated for all these things, and it doesn't matter if things go on the right shelf or not or in any order or not, I just need to be able to dump them in) and/or fridge, dump all used dishes/utensils in the sink, and then roll up the plastic tablecloth with all the spills, messes, plastic items, paper towels etc and toss it in the garbage. No further wiping down or cleaning up needed. This way, the mess is contained, and I don't need to think too hard about where to put things. I know this sounds simple, and you may already be doing this, but it literally took me 20 years to figure this out and break it down into steps so I could manage it - that's what having ADD/ADHD is like. Breaking it down into steps is crucial to learn to manage cleaning and organizing tasks. And it would probably help her if you walked her through all the steps, in the same order each time, for the first several times, and then she should be able to do it on her own.

Your daughter is 15 and is old enough to learn to manage this aspect of her ADD. She will not be a functioning adult if she doesn't learn it, and she only has a few years left before she may not be living at home anymore. it's time for you to sit down with her and brainstorm together about how she can have a system that works for her to make it easier for her to clean up. Suggest the above or another idea to her, and then work out a system together. It doesn't have to be perfect, and if you need to do an extra brief once over to satisfy your husband, I have no objection, as long as she is doing a good enough job on her own (good enough = it would pass in someone else's house who is less of a neat freak). But the goal is to help her do it on her own - it will help her so much.

Independence is a gift, and it's a gift you can give her Smile

amother

Teal

Wed, May 31 2017, 11:55 pm

My parents did this to me whether it was babysitting, cooking, setting a table, to bigger decisions. They were full of criticism and rarely praised. I thought I just couldn't get anything right and that there was something different about myself. Then I married my husband who is naturally very critical but knows also how to praise. I've only just realised that my earlier experience made me comfortable in the role of being criticized and that's partly what drew me to him. I've started therapy and trying to build my self worth. She's also showing me how to stand up for my daughters when he is being unreasonable and overly negative. It's a combination of making him aware, because of course he does care about their self esteem, and teaching them that they can stand up for themselves, contrary to the mussar we all got at school that even if your father spits on your cheek in public, we must respect him. I don't hold by that. It's damaging and the damage passes down the generations.

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