Herd mentality on Imamothers

farm

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:09 pm

What do you think? I was reading the thread on whether or not to punish an 11 year old who was obnoxious to her mother and thought I was in the twilight zone on page 1 with the replies/advice. But then slowly, voices of dissent (reason, in my opinion), started appearing. Until by page 3, the original advice was no longer being offered by posters. And I've definitely seen this before where I'll read the original post and raise an eyebrow at the responses that pile on blame and criticism on the op in a rapid fire fast and furious manner.
Do people enjoy jumping on the bandwagon to attack?
Do people form their opinion based on the previous opinions already offered?
Are people afraid of posting a different view?
Obviously, we have some heavy debates and discussions where posters let their hair down and share ideas without influence from other posters, but even on those threads, the voices of dissent will often be anonymous while the party line won't.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:17 pm

I don't think that disagreement means what you think it means.

This is a forum made up of thousands of diverse frum women whose opinions may agree or disagree. Disagreement doesn't mean attack. Posters on that thread were able to make their points without insulting language or putdowns. The conversation was civil and well mannered.

tichellady

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:22 pm

I didn't read the comments on the first page the way you did. They didn't seem to be blaming everything on the mother, they were trying to understand the relationship in general or to answer the op's question, that maybe focusing on a punishment is not the first thing to be doing . I think that working on the relationship between mother and daughter is far more important than figuring out what the right punishment is. There are lots of different views held by members of this site on what proper parenting looks like, so there will be all sort of responses. The op clearly seemed angry about what happened and very upset at her daughter for her rude, but age appropriate behavior. I think that she may be overextending herself in the morning by making lunch, and this may be leading to more resentment. Yes, it's very nice of the op to make lunch for her daughter, but if it's causing so much tension, it doesn't seem worth it.

The op also left some details unclear, so I think the original posters assumed the daughter didn't have anything she could eat for lunch but later posters knew that wasn't true ( and knew more about the whole lunch making business in the morning).

sequoia

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:24 pm

Some cases are clear-cut. If you have 30 pages of people telling you that you're being abused, well, maybe think about it.

But in more ambiguous situations (ie most of the time):

1. Everyone's approaching it with their own "baggage" - their own background, experiences, and associations.

2. Some people are "contrarians." They enjoy arguing the opposing point as an exercise of sorts.

3. Others agree with the majority, but are too shy to chime in until they have plenty of backup (what may look like herd instinct).

4. Advice may differ culturally. For instance, Americans and Israelis may have diametrically opposing views. Due to time zone differences, this may also create the impression of a herd mentality.

iluvy

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:29 pm

I think farm is talking about the idea that very often a thread will end up with a few basic opposing points of view, all valid, but the initial wave of responses will all represent one view, until one person posts another view and then a bunch of people representing the second view will join the thread.

I notice this a lot. In some cases (not necessarily this one) it appears to be a time zone thing.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:34 pm

farm wrote:

I often notice this as well,

And specifically on the thread you are referring to, I was noticing it, because the harsh responses just made no sense. After the first harsh response I was sure people would disagree, but instead they all joined the attack. I couldn't believe it! I was going to post in defenses of the op, but couldn't at the time. I was happy to see some voices of reason later on.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:40 pm

I am the op of that thread. To say I was shocked is an understatement. People were down right rude and condescending. If you don't have enough details to answer, ask a question. No I don't need therapy. No we dont have relationship problems. I do think it is a herd mentality. Everyone needs to hang onto the coat tails of the previous reply continuing the bashing until finally, someone with a backbone wakes up and realizes that the replies are and we're downright insane!!! I think it makes people feel good about themselves to put down other human beings on thus site. It makes them feel elevated on a pedestal.

I have been posting here for years. This will bli neder be the last time I ever ask a question here because the impulsivity and lack of thought people put into their responses made me think I was living in the twilight zone.

Perhaps this is where chinuch in the year 2017 is is going. Parents are always wrong, need therapy, are all abusive, and for kids, it's a free for all. Do as I wish, whenever, wherever.

[gentile]'d luck to us all.

tichellady

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:55 pm

amother wrote:

I think you were too shocked and upset to actually see what people were saying. No one was saying you were abusive and that your daughter can say and do whatever she wants. Im sorry you felt so attacked, but I really don't think anyone was attacking you ( I certainly wasn't) . People were just saying that this is a very hard age and it's more important to focus on the relationship not on punishments. I don't think that's putting you down or crazy to say. I think it applies to all relationships and is something we all need reminding of.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:01 pm

tichellady wrote:

You weren't rude. It's not in your nature. But a lot of posters were! And they made a ton of baseless accusations- such as the op sounds like she is in a constant battle with her daughter. There was no reason for that! There was nothing in her post that indicated anything of the sort. She sounded like a great mother who had a difficult morning with her daughter and was looking for some opinion. And ftr, children who call their mother names did something wrong. Period. A punishment may or may not be the best response. It depends on the circumstances. But all op did was ask. And then lots of posters basically insinuated that there was something wrong with her parenting and her relationship with her daughter. It was odd to say the least. And many were quite rude as well.

Fox

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:06 pm

amother wrote:

Perhaps this is where chinuch in the year 2017 is is going. Parents are always wrong, need therapy, are all abusive, and for kids, it's a free for all. Do as I wish, whenever, wherever.

With respect, I believe this was the attitude that caused the pile-on. The opposite of imposing a punishment is not a "free for all." That kind of false dichotomy is what, in many people's observations, has led to poor parenting on both ends of the spectrum.

It's perfectly fine to disagree with certain posters' suggestions or to point out additional details that might change everyone's thinking. But no one said she was opposed to respect and derech eretz. Nor did anyone say that kids should be allowed to do whatever they want.

Besides, when Marina, SixOfWands, and I all tell you you're drunk, don't lie down -- go straight to the emergency room.

tigerwife

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:10 pm

I see this a lot, too. You'll have ten responses in a similar vein and then one person posts a new idea. Suddenly everyone else posts in that new direction.

I wouldn't call it herd mentality exactly, more like being offered a fresh perspective that would change your response.

farm

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:20 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Sorry, I think I was unclear in my op. Iluvy clarified/said it better than me. Disregarding disparaging posters. The actual opinions or approaches to situations or dilemmas that are posed. The answers will all sway one extreme way for a while until someone (anonymously?) gives a different viewpoint and suddenly that viewpoint is brought up by other posters too.

Edited to fix typo

Last edited by farm on Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

debsey

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:36 pm

sequoia wrote:

This last point is interesting. Never thought of it that way.....

crust

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:45 pm

I often begin posting a response oand by the time I did a few things and finished posting I realize there are a lot of responses before mine often saying something along my lines.
This happens to me I can say 95%of the time, Except if I post a short sentence.

Now on to this specific chinuch thread.
It took me quite a while to write up my response. I put myself into the OPs position and thought; what would I have done?
In order to explain my mehalech I would have to write up an entire article. I'm not being sarcastic. Really.
So I went, I thought about the two things that I felt I didn't get and I asked it.
How do you define chutzpah? While an 11 year old girl calling her mother like this is definitely out of line and my question might've have to be a bit more specific like; Is she mature in other areas? How is she getting along with PEOPLE otherwise? I still believe it was not an offensive question.

And my second question was again an innocent one; how do you punish an 11 year old?
Again, I might've have to explain myself better; If this is the first time this child does it, (which somehow didnt make sense to me but I can be totally wrong) then, I discuss with my child what the consequence for the next time around which is usually a natural consenquince.

I might've not been explicit enough but, I don't think my questions were totally out of line, unheard of, drunk or putting total responsibility on the mother. Maybe I am wrong for trying to make the mother think.
However,
I think my questions were soft enough and could at least be answered.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 3:03 pm

I tend to ask questions so I can understand what the poster is writing about. Many time posts are written in the heat of the moment from an emotional POV. I like to distill it down. That's what works for me. A single detail can change a post, Crust brought that out up thread. With a thread like the one referenced, the originator revealed a bit more each time she posted.