"Everybody's faking"

amother

Smokey

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:20 pm

amother wrote:

This posting is so full of garbage. Unbelievable!

I am quite chasidishe and proud of it. Most of the people that I know are well adjusted and happy, full of simcha.

YOUR personal experience may have exposed you to unhealthy people with a cult-like mentality, but that is the MINORITY. A RARITY. Don't color an entire community with your skewed world view.

The average chasidishe family is happy, appreciating the chasidishe-way of life.

I know of no one beating anything into their kids. Seems you've just been exposed to a handful of the wrong people. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but your posting was full of anti-chasidism based upon your own biased experience.

I was going to not respond to this, but I thought about it awhile and decided to clarify my point. I think you may have read my post as another attack on chassidus in the typical style:

"chassidim have child molestation problems"
"chassidim are so dishonest!"
"why do they steal from the govt!"
"why do they think its ok to cheat on taxes~!"
"how come they treat women like dirt!"
etc.

but I did not write or address ANY of those things. even the point you singled out where I mentioned "beating" I put the word figuratively right there, although you pointedly ignored it and tried to ad hominem me by implying I said actual beating. lets leave that aside however.

I personally grew up in a very prominent family as far as chassidic circles go, and had a lot of access to personalities in the chassidic world that lots of people did not. my family was happy as well. I was always somewhat of a deep thinker & questioner, something my family was not particularly happy about. but that too is neither here nor there.

while every persons individual experience might be dismissed as anecdotal, I have to question what you think the basic tenets of judaism are, and how you define a cult, and why judaism is not one.

to the ramchal, the chovos halevovos, the rambam, and many more, "haskel vyodoea osi" (you should "know" hashem, meaning his nature and his ways) is a basic tenet of judaism. anyone who says, "dont ask why, just believe and accept" is in flagrant violation of one of the most basic ideas of yahadus. herein lies the key issue of the "cancer" I mentioned that is spreading in chassidus.

I dont know what chassidus was like in prewar europe. maybe everyone read noam elimelech and all the sifrei chassidus and questioned their rebbe about everything and knew the anwers. however nowadays that is just NOT how chassidus is taught or practiced. chassidim go out of their way to emphasize NOT questioning the why of things, and focus heavily on "do as I say, and dont ask why"

now, you might find me an anecdotal story about some rav or a family who does things differently, but I have spoken with principals of the major mosdos of the biggest chassidusses (not a word I know) in the world, and they have all confirmed this is how it's done. this is the system they institutionalize, teach according do, and uphold. the menahel of one of the biggest mosdos ger in the world told me personally that he wanted to change this culture, and the moment he started "making waves" he was told very bluntly that he had better stop or he would be ousted and replaced with someone more "traditional".

I have sort of a passion for this, and whenever I meet people I always ask them about their beliefs and why they believe in it and why they do what they do. there is an honest negative reaction when I approach most chassidish people with these kinds of questions. I dont mean the first time I ask, because everyone can spit out some shallow nonsense, I mean if you really probe deeper into the uncomfortable truths that are in every religion.

now you might say, "HA, AND YOU THINK YOUR AVERAGE LITVISH KID HAS THESE ANSWERS, OH PLEASE." actually, no they dont. but here is where that cult/religion thing comes into play. in 2017, in your average (THERE MIGHT BE EXCEPTIONS) yeshiva/girls school, if a kid walks up to a normal rebbe/morah and says, I dont understand, why does hashem have yesurim shel ahava? why do I need to dress differently? why cant I talk to girls/boys? why is hashem so demanding? doesnt the existence of uranium testing prove the world in more than 5000 years old? why would hashem make my neighbors baby get cancer, when their mommy is the most wonderful person in the world and she is just a baby! etc, etc,the rebbe will attempt to give an answer, or he will say, im not sure, but ask rabbi x, he knows these things. even if they are not given an answer, it is not looked at as a bad thing to ask. and again, while you might find me one or two litvish mosdos that do act like that, they are the exception, and I would call them out for it as well.

if you ask these questions in a chassidishe mosad boys or girls, one of the following will happen:

1) get slapped in the face and called a kofer for questioning hashem
2) get slapped in the face gently and with a smile and told not to question the ways of hashem
3) get told sweetly to not question the ways of hashem
4) get called a kofer publicly and sent home
5) have your parents called and asked if "everything is ok at home, why is she/he asking these kinds of questions"
6) get a stern talking to by the principal/menahelet
etc.

im honestly done here. if you disagree with what I wrote, then we agree to disagree. my insiders view of the community is that there is either a small majority or huge minority (not sure which) of people inside the chassidic community who have little to no understanding of the nature and meaning behind their value system, and their enthusiasm and participation is all based on cultural beliefs and sociological reasons (family, peers, etc) rather than rationality. history shows that this kind of system eventually collapses. in a teva sense, the survival of judaism against all odds has ALWAYS been based on the passionate exploration of all subjects, and showing how judaism has an explanation and answer for everything, and is relevant to every subject and part of life, nothing is taboo, and if one searches he or she will find their answers to any subject.

now for some anecdotes:

just a few years ago a girl from a chassidishe mosad (high school) told me her teacher hosted a q&a session where she said to the girls, I know in this dor people have a lot on their minds. girls, feel free to ask ANY question right now, and I will answer! so a different girl (not the one telling me the story, and according to the story teller girl #2 was not a bad girl just a normal girl) raises her hand and asks "boys are very attracted to girls, are girls attracted to boys the same way?" the teachers face turned ashen, and she stammered something, said girls I need a moment, ran out of the room, and returned with the principal. they took the bewildered girl (who had been told she could ask anything) out of the room and sent her home. the principal then came back in and said "girls im shocked anyone would ask something so inappropriate in a public setting, but since you already heard the question I dont want you to not have an answer. the answer is that girls are not attracted to boys the same way boys are to girls, rather girls desire to have children because that is part of the nature of a woman, and that is why they want to get married. now, I will allow this q&a session to continue, but I am staying in the room and I expect to hear only questions appropriate for girls of your caliber" she then stood tight-lipped and motioned for the teacher to allow the class to continue. I am sure you can imagine challenging and intense questions that went on there, right?

story 2, and with this I will end.

I was sitting at the shabbos table with an immediate relative of mine, and I was hocking her (she is still deeply chassidic and, as I mentioned, my family is very prominent so she is considered very "choshuv") about the why's of chassidus. she could not answer my questions and became frustrated and asked her husband for support. he said to me, you cant really understand chassidus without learning kabbala. then he looked at me totally self-satisfied. after all, whats the comeback here? did I learn kabbala? no? so game over!

I said, what are you talking about, thats mamish garbage. you mean to tell me that the religion practiced by so many is only meant to be understood by a chosen few who get to learn kabbala? he had the honestly to look abashed, then thought for a while. finally he said to me, "look, let me tell you my rav said, and this really explains the basics of chassidus. after this if you need more, you need to learn kabbala." ok, I said, and I waited to hear this deep thought about chassidus.

"emunah & bitachon are the alef-bais of chassidus!" he said triumphantly, waving his hands in the air. then he settled down. he had won, he had defended chassidus, and his whole family looked at him proudly.

I'll just leave that here for you, and you can decide if it bothers you in any way.

"emunah & bitachon are the alef-bais of chassidus!"

debsey

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:31 pm

amother wrote:

Smokey, a lot of what you are saying resonates. It would be easier to relate to this if you used your SN, but I can understand why you did not.

I did grow up in the mainstream BY system, and while questions were discouraged in my elementary school, they were not discouraged in my HS. You couldn't ask them in middle of class, but there were principals and teachers who let it be known openly that they'd have any sort of discussion ( from "yesurim shel ahava" to seeming contradictions between Torah and science) with you privately, which I think was a nice compromise. (and yes, this was a mainstream BY school "in town".)

So if that's not the chassidish girl's experience, that's sad, because I think the unintended message of the "you may not ask" culture is that there are unanswerable questions, and that's not true.

I do get the sense that you are speaking accurately, because I have some colleagues, friends and relatives who are chassidish who tell me that. There is one woman who came to Lakewood as an adult chassidish woman who joined a shiur I go to, and one thing she said (publicly in the shiur) is that she loves that she can ask questions and that the rebbetzin has answers or says "I'll look into it and get back to you." She said (publicly, so I don't think I'm telling tales out of school here) that she didn't have that experience as a girl in a fairly large and mainstream chassidish HS in BP.

I just want to point out - just because you didn't get answers as a girl, doesn't mean there aren't any. And I also want to validate your feelings in that second anecdote, where you were dismissed and somewhat publicly shamed.

farm

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 2:39 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you for posting

amother

Powderblue

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 3:04 pm

smokey:
You gave some anecdotes, so I will as well.
When I lost my baby, I spoke to a chassideshe rav. (picture the wild beard, thick accent, big glitchiga kapel) After listening to me cry, he spent almost 10 hours of his time in person and over the phone talking to me about emunah and bitachon. He didn't charge. He never even asked me my first name or family background. All he knew was that I was a woman going through a crisis. I have to say, his take on emunah completely changed my life.
And yes, now I would agree with your relative that emunah and bitachon are the cornerstones of not just chassidus, but life. Does that mean you'll write me off as an ignorant chassidishe woman?

Another story is about relatives of my husband who had children ranging from adult to 5 years old. They were very old fashioned in their mindset, raising kids to obey, rather than feel. When one of their teenagers were having trouble in school, their rebbe suggested they go to a shabbaton on chinuch. I promise you, OVERNIGHT this couple turned their lives around. Could you imagine the strength of character that takes? They went against everything they had been raised with, apologized to the older kids for their past mistakes, and immediately changed their whole lifestyle because they saw the truth. The father used to slap a kid for answering back. I saw the following with my own eyes: now he sits down and says tehillim because he tells his son "if you hurt me, obviously Hashem saw that I deserved to be hurt and I need to do teshuvah." After he calmed down, he said, "but even though you were just the shaliach, it is still my job as a father to teach you to not disrespect a parent. " And then he worked out a punishment WITH the ten year old boy that was appropriate to dissuade him from doing it again.
I could not believe my eyes! They were able to seemingly change their entire personality just because the Rebbe suggested the shabbos.

I can go on and on with stories to show that chassidish people as a whole are not mindless zombies who are scared of questions.