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Would you be offended if you were asked to be Kvatter?
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:51 pm
amother wrote:
Oh how I wish I could irradiate the word 'nebach'.

Its unfortunate that I'm struggling years to have a child."oh nebach for me". But please please please please never call me a nebach - or anyone else.



Agreed
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amother
Coral


 

Post Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:56 pm
zaq wrote:
Still. Where's the dlkz? People offering kvatter aren't evil or disgusting or deliberately twisting a knife. They mean well, just like all the people who wish singles IYH by you at weddings. Sure you get tired of hearing it. A child gets offended. An adult realizes that the intentions are honorable and appreciates that.


Can I just say- you are very insistent on this whole "child vs adult" comparison. A person can be a respectable and mature adult and still get offended by things. Realize that most people commenting on this forum about their feelings aren't actually expressing them verbally in public. There is nothing childlike about having feelings. If you throw a tantrum on the phone when someone offers you kvatter then yeh- you have an issue. But feeling hurt or insulted or offended and only expressing those feelings on a forum like this one is totally legitimate.
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Alexandra1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 15 2017, 2:56 pm
I have close friend who does not have children. She and her husband were frequently asked to be kvatterim. Even in the first couple of years, it bothered them, but they agreed to do it. Then, they kept being asked. It was hard enough to attend the brissim and it made it even harder when people would ask them. They felt like the parents went through who was coming and were like-Oh, they do not have children. What made it worse was that it was often done publicly (transferring of the baby), at a time when they did not want attention brought to them.One time, the husband was asked at the bris and her husband declined. the new father kept asking why and took it personally that the offer was declined. I think her husband finally said that they do not like to be the center of attention-they are low key people. Another time they declined a family member and a guest said to her husband- I thought you would have been the kvatter!Why are you not the kvatter?(with the tone- aren't you getting along with your sibling?)From knowing them, I would say it is best to ask people you are close to give the kibbud- married, unmarried, people with children , etc. Also, this couple does not even believe in the segulah of if you carry the baby, you will have a child.PEOPLE, IN GENERAL, NEED TO BE SENSITIVE OF OTHERS-SINGLE,DIVORCED, SICK,DIFFERENTLY ABLED, DIFFERENTLY OBSERVANT, ETC.

Last edited by Alexandra1 on Fri, Jun 16 2017, 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Thu, Jun 15 2017, 3:42 pm
I realize that OP got her answer but wanted to share my take for anyone else who might find this thread in the future. (Posting anon because I will be sharing details and while the friend mentioned is not on here I believe her daughter is).

We were married for 12 years b4 DD1 was born. During that time we were asked numerous times to be kvatter. One of the first was for a nephew (DH's brother). The bris was on a Sunday and we spent that Shabbos with my bro and sil. They had been married a number of years and did not have children yet. I was niddah and unsure how that works. An opportunity presented itself to ask sil and we had a great discussion. One thing she told me stuck with me. She said that she only said yes to people she had a real relationship with, people who's bris she would have attended even without the honor.

We handled our IF differently then many others. We were the type that really remained positive and stayed engaged with our family and friends (to many we were the fun and favorite uncle and tanta). Our IF was not something that interfered in our relationships. I don't know how we did it or why we were different than others, that's just the way it was.

The ONLY time that I recall crying about the 'situation' was when my closest friend offered us kvater for her first son. They were our neighbors when we got married (they already had two girls at the time) and we became very close. I babysat when her third was born (a girl a bit over a year after we got married) and when her 4th, a boy, was born 2 years later. They called asking us to be kvater and I fell apart. I could not stop crying. My DH called them and said he wasn't sure and her husband (a very yeshivish man who generally did not talk to women much) asked to talk to me. He made it clear that he was not pressuring me because ritzono shel Adam zehu kivodo but he wanted me to know that no matter what I decided, my DH would be getting a kibud at the bris. He also mentioned that his wife had davened that number 3 be a boy just so she could give us the kibud. I ended up doing it because I felt like it was a real kibud.
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amother
Coral


 

Post Thu, Jun 15 2017, 3:48 pm
amother wrote:
I realize that OP got her answer but wanted to share my take for anyone else who might find this thread in the future. (Posting anon because I will be sharing details and while the friend mentioned is not on here I believe her daughter is).

We were married for 12 years b4 DD1 was born. During that time we were asked numerous times to be kvatter. One of the first was for a nephew (DH's brother). The bris was on a Sunday and we spent that Shabbos with my bro and sil. They had been married a number of years and did not have children yet. I was niddah and unsure how that works. An opportunity presented itself to ask sil and we had a great discussion. One thing she told me stuck with me. She said that she only said yes to people she had a real relationship with, people who's bris she would have attended even without the honor.

We handled our IF differently then many others. We were the type that really remained positive and stayed engaged with our family and friends (to many we were the fun and favorite uncle and tanta). Our IF was not something that interfered in our relationships. I don't know how we did it or why we were different than others, that's just the way it was.

The ONLY time that I recall crying about the 'situation' was when my closest friend offered us kvater for her first son. They were our neighbors when we got married (they already had two girls at the time) and we became very close. I babysat when her third was born (a girl a bit over a year after we got married) and when her 4th, a boy, was born 2 years later. They called asking us to be kvater and I fell apart. I could not stop crying. My DH called them and said he wasn't sure and her husband (a very yeshivish man who generally did not talk to women much) asked to talk to me. He made it clear that he was not pressuring me because ritzono shel Adam zehu kivodo but he wanted me to know that no matter I decided, my DH would be getting a kibud at the bris. He also mentioned that his wife had davened that number 3 be a boy just so she could give us the kibud. I ended up doing it because I felt like it was a real kibud.


That story is beautiful! Especially the part about giving your husband a kibbud no matter what.
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finallyamommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 15 2017, 5:14 pm
I didn't read all the responses, but it depends who asks.

If they've been through IF themselves, I'll be kvatter happily.

If they are generally pretty sensitive about my situation (and I do mean "generally" and not "always" because sometimes I was so upset at the world during my PIF years that whatever you said you couldn't win), then I'll be kvatter happily.

But just today, somebody asked me to be kvatter. This is someone who is ridiculously fertile, has no idea what it's like to go through IF, complains about her other kids and how hard they are, didn't bother to tell me she was expecting (it was obvious for months but come on, what if she'd just gained weight? Do people the courtesy of letting them know, please), and now that I do have my miracle princess she has criticism for everything I do - I need to cut her hair, and I need to buy her more toys, and I need to stop nursing, and I need to put her to bed earlier, and I need to send her out to gan.

I haven't responded yet, but no definitely not interested in being kvatter. I'm not even ready to start TTC again.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 15 2017, 5:48 pm
finallyamommy wrote:


But just today, somebody asked me to be kvatter. This is someone who is ridiculously fertile, has no idea what it's like to go through IF, complains about her other kids and how hard they are, didn't bother to tell me she was expecting (it was obvious for months but come on, what if she'd just gained weight? Do people the courtesy of letting them know, please), and now that I do have my miracle princess she has criticism for everything I do - I need to cut her hair, and I need to buy her more toys, and I need to stop nursing, and I need to put her to bed earlier, and I need to send her out to gan.

.


I would decline, too, not because she's not walking on eggs around me but because she's not a nice person.

But you know, in some situations a person can't win. Tell a childless friend youre expecting, you're gloating. Don't tell her, and you're insulting.
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finallyamommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 15 2017, 6:31 pm
zaq wrote:
I would decline, too, not because she's not walking on eggs around me but because she's not a nice person.

But you know, in some situations a person can't win. Tell a childless friend youre expecting, you're gloating. Don't tell her, and you're insulting.


I don't disagree with the "can't win" sentiment, but come on. That baby is going to come eventually, and unless you have a shita against ever mentioning your pregnancy (which I understand and respect even if I don't like it), it's not fair for IFers to be the last ones to be told. I once found out a close friend was expecting when a mutual friend invited both of us over for Shabbos and she was something like 39 weeks and gave birth half a week later. She couldn't have mentioned it once, in all the weekly phone chevrusas we had?
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 12:49 am
Dunno, we viewed it as a kibbud or a way for people to express how much they cared about us.

There was that one time that a relative wouldn't take no for an answer, even after we told her that our Rov said no to a "two pillow" solution. And yes we spelled it out for her. She still insisted that this might be our only chance, and it's such a powerful segulah, and on and on and on. It really was funny at that point - she basically told us that in the zechus of us breaking niddah we'd be guaranteed to have a kid. And even after we summed it up to her that way she still insisted that maybe we should just find a Rov that would give us the heter. The whole conversation was so ludicrous that it was hard to take offense.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 1:08 am
amother wrote:
We didn't want to be asked at all. We were only married for less than a year and people were already asking us to be kvatter like we were already marked as the infertile couple.

I had my first baby 18 months after we were married. That's just how it worked out. We were asked to be kvatter when I was already pregnant and I felt I had to tell my aunt just in case she'd rather give it someone else. In my family it's a kibbud that we give to people who are trying to have children.
We gave it to cousins in the week of sheva brachot-- they have 10 children now!
My friend was complaining about trying to get pregnant so I gave her kvatter-- and before she took it, she felt a need to tell me that she was pregnant.
I would never ever offer it to couples suffering long term infertility. Because they have probably had that kibbud a gazillion times and can't take the pain.
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Alexandra1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 6:17 am
On a related note of sensitivity,I have learned that when you meet someone, don't ask,"How old are your children ?" Rather ask -do you have children? or,BETTER, wait for the person to inform you that they don't have children.Some have then asked my friend,"how long have you been married?"(as if being married for 1-2 years is ok/typical if don't have children yet.so the QUESTIONER may not feel as awkward that they asked that question. but, if longer the QUESTIONER says something insensitive or there is an awkward silence). Then my friend has to deal with trying to make it not so awkward while being so upset. ALSO, when you find out that the person you meet does not have children, DON"T say,"you are so lucky that you do have a yeshiva tuition problem." This has been said to her many times.As much as tuition is a strain for many people, those without children would gladly sacrifice to have a child/ren.ALSO, preferred, do not ask that question in front of others.It may seem like a lot to be sensitive to infertile couples, but I think it is worth it. My friend cried so many times not only because of their situation(which they do not have control over), but because of the insensitivity of others-which CAN be prevented/controlled.Thank you.

Last edited by Alexandra1 on Fri, Jun 16 2017, 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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fleetwood




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 6:34 am
Haven't read all the responses but it becomes ridiculous when all your friends have kids except you,so when they need a kvattet it's ALWAYS YOU!!!
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amother
Linen


 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 8:23 am
Alexandra1 wrote:
On a related note of sensitivity,I have learned that when you meet someone, don't ask,"How old are your children ?" Rather ask -do you have children? or,BETTER, wait for the person to inform you that they don't have children.Some have then asked my friend,"how long have you been married?"(as if being married for 1-2 years is ok/typical if don't have children yet.so the QUESTIONER may not feel as awkward that they asked that question. but, if longer the QUESTIONER says something insensitive or there is an awkward silence). Then my friend has to deal with trying to make it not so awkward while being so upset. ALSO, when you find out that the person you meet does not have children, DON"T say,"you are so lucky that you do have a yeshiva tuition problem." This has been said to her many times.As much as tuition is a strain for many people, those without children would gladly sacrifice to have a child/ren.ALSO, preferred, do not ask that question in front of others.It may seem like a lot to be sensitive to infertile couples, but I think it is worth it. My friend cried so many times not only because of their situation(which they do not have control over), but because of the insensitivity of others-which CAN be prevented/controlled.Thank you.


As someone with IF, asking if they have children is also a hard question to answer - just reminds them again that they have none, and usually an awkward silence follows anyway. I would recommend not bringing it up.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 11:06 am
Alexandra1 wrote:
On a related note of sensitivity,I have learned that when you meet someone, don't ask,"How old are your children ?" Rather ask -do you have children? or,BETTER, wait for the person to inform you that they don't have children.Some have then asked my friend,"how long have you been married?"(as if being married for 1-2 years is ok/typical if don't have children yet.so the QUESTIONER may not feel as awkward that they asked that question. but, if longer the QUESTIONER says something insensitive or there is an awkward silence). Then my friend has to deal with trying to make it not so awkward while being so upset. ALSO, when you find out that the person you meet does not have children, DON"T say,"you are so lucky that you do have a yeshiva tuition problem." This has been said to her many times.As much as tuition is a strain for many people, those without children would gladly sacrifice to have a child/ren.ALSO, preferred, do not ask that question in front of others.It may seem like a lot to be sensitive to infertile couples, but I think it is worth it. My friend cried so many times not only because of their situation(which they do not have control over), but because of the insensitivity of others-which CAN be prevented/controlled.Thank you.


Good point. Also when someone tells you that she doesn't have children, don't say " you should be more careful with hilkhot niddah."
Yes a rabbi said that to me and it was an idiotic and hurtful thing to say.
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amother
Gray


 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 5:56 pm
My good friend got pregnant right after I had a late pregnancy loss. She had a boy and asked me to be kvatter at the bris. It meant a lot to me. And BH I got pregnant afterwards. Do I think that is what got me pregnant. Not necessarily. But it really meant a lot to me that my friend gave me and my husband the kibbud.
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