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Why are we quick to judge certain situations?
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Wed, Jun 21 2017, 7:39 pm
relish wrote:
So you are saying that if she gets a job and goes off of programs, your taxes will go down?!


Of course not. But that doesn't make it right to deliberately not work and be supported by programs funded by people who do. Can I go to my neighbors house and if I see a $5 Bill on the floor quickly put it in my purse? I'm sure that my neighbors lifestyle won't change one bit if she's out $5. Would you therefore argue there's nothing wrong with me taking it? Of course it's wrong. It doesn't belong to me. To be perfectly honest I'm very unsure how I feel about Kollel families. It disappoints me to know that many don't seem to even realize that perhaps it's wrong to take advantage of programs and to use them in ways that they were not intended. Many programs were implemented after the great depression in the 1930's. Desperate people who were legitimately trying, were not able to provide for their families. Now days it's a joke. Programs are in place not for when people can't find work but rather so that people shouldn't work. I didn't say it on that thread but someone mentioned that the op should consider ways to earn more money and become self sufficient. I have several siblings and relatives in Lakewood and the first thought that crossed my mind was that in these places everyone knows that you can't simply take a better paying job. A 10k raise can actually mean a big loss as it will make a family ineligible for various benefits. But I think your question epitomizes the problem. The fact that my taxes won't go down means the money is free and doesn't belong to anyone. It's the same as money found on the street.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 21 2017, 8:06 pm
amother wrote:
Now days it's a joke. Programs are in place not for when people can't find work but rather so that people shouldn't work.

I never fail to be amazed at how indignant people get about the allegedly undeserving beneficiaries of anti-poverty and food assistance programs -- yet remain remarkably sanguine about farm subsidies.

In dollars and cents, I can assure you that farm subsidies paid to millionaire farmers are a much more significant drain on your tax contributions than someone's ill-gotten food stamps. But somehow outrage over the topic never bubbles to the top on Imamother. It was once suggested to me that people get more upset over waste that they can see in their own neighborhoods. Well, if that's the case, then the outrage has nothing to do with ill-spent tax revenue; that's simply an excuse.

It's not that I necessarily disagree with you about cynical manipulation of governmental safety nets. Rather, the constant and repetitive focus on how "wrong" it is doesn't allow us to think critically or creatively about the world.

For example, many economists are starting to question whether we should consider a guaranteed minimum income. And what about a world in which most labor is done by computers and robots? It is not far-fetched to imagine a society which generates goods and services and yet in which very few people "work," or at least work very much. We are rapidly getting to a point where our social agreements about fairness and equity may be useless or irrelevant.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Wed, Jun 21 2017, 8:24 pm
I didn't post on the other thread, because the question wasn't whether she should have another child. She's already pregnant. It's unkind to berate a pregnant woman.

My take is that posters get judgy when their own struggles are dismissed. People who work two jobs and scrimp and limit their family size out of a sense of financial responsibility feel like their hard work is not appreciated and even looked down upon as a sign of not having emunah.
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behappy2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 21 2017, 8:40 pm
I didn't read through all the answers but I think it is cultural. Today it is ok to be gay. It is not ok to put yourself before your children. There is a lot of talk about accepting differences and you will see this reflected back even in the very frum insular communities.
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 7:02 am
CAN SOMEONE KINDLY STATE WHAT IS THE REAL CORE QUESTION TO THIS THREAD???
WHAT DO THE POSTERS (OR, THE INITIAL POSTER HERE) REALLY WANT TO GENUINELY KNOW?

I'm sorry that I wrote my question in capitals: I'm a deep thinker and enjoy philosohical discussions, but I feel the discussion going on here is just going around and around in circles without one understanding what the other is trying to say.
Ummm, I personally have lost the core point of this thread from all the answers which I'm finding dizzying - adding wings and legs and feet to the discussion but not tying up anything.

It started off as an interesting question - Why are we quick to judge certain situations?
But, sorry, the discussion isn't heading in any clear direction. It's just becoming more entangled.

imho
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amother
Oak


 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 10:36 am
amother wrote:
CAN SOMEONE KINDLY STATE WHAT IS THE REAL CORE QUESTION TO THIS THREAD???
WHAT DO THE POSTERS (OR, THE INITIAL POSTER HERE) REALLY WANT TO GENUINELY KNOW?


Welcome to ima!
Come in, have a seat. Want a cup o coffee?
Relax. Take a deep breath and go read your favorite book if you don't find this site deep enough for you.
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 10:49 am
amother wrote:
Welcome to ima!
Come in, have a seat. Want a cup o coffee?
Relax. Take a deep breath and go read your favorite book if you don't find this site deep enough for you.


tx for the "very warm welcome" and for bringing me to tears. I joined imamother b/c I'm feeling very alone and lonely and imamother seemed a forum of warm nice women.
you totally misunderstood my question.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 11:06 am
amother wrote:
Welcome to ima!
Come in, have a seat. Want a cup o coffee?
Relax. Take a deep breath and go read your favorite book if you don't find this site deep enough for you.


Very rude.

Why would you say this anonymously?
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 12:05 pm
Agree with Fox that there are some party lines here. The question is why.
Like 3b2c said on the other thread, you get support and hugs for uncovering hair and sending you kid to public school but get spit on for protesting hand holding when niddah or having children you "can't" afford. Why are those the party lines?
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amother
Oak


 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 3:32 pm
amother wrote:
tx for the "very warm welcome" and for bringing me to tears. I joined imamother b/c I'm feeling very alone and lonely and imamother seemed a forum of warm nice women.
you totally misunderstood my question.


Then I'm sorry. I really misunderstood you. I thought you were saying you didn't enjoy it. In any case I didnt try to be sarcastic. I feel bad that I came accross this way. I hope to be more careful next time with written word.
I'm really really sorry.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 4:50 pm
amother wrote:
tx for the "very warm welcome" and for bringing me to tears. I joined imamother b/c I'm feeling very alone and lonely and imamother seemed a forum of warm nice women.
you totally misunderstood my question.


I totally get you and it's why I originally didn't watch this thread, interesting as it sounded. Really, I feel like I could have written your post.

Edited to delete a caution that sometimes people come across in ways they totally don't intend to, but not necessary, having finished the page.

Welcome!
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yogabird




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 5:17 pm
Re: the subject of this thread, it's PC to be judgey about certain topics, and not PC to be judgey about certain other ones. Filtering down from the world at large.

Re: OP's first post, I think some things skip generations. Generation A will have a large family, generation B will have felt neglected and vow to do th opposite, generation C will have been lonely growing up and jealous of their friends with their many siblings and have a large family. And so on. Obviously this is a gross oversimplification, but I think there's quite a bit of truth to it.
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anon for this




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 5:17 pm
amother wrote:
I didn't post on the other thread, because the question wasn't whether she should have another child. She's already pregnant. It's unkind to berate a pregnant woman.

My take is that posters get judgy when their own struggles are dismissed. People who work two jobs and scrimp and limit their family size out of a sense of financial responsibility feel like their hard work is not appreciated and even looked down upon as a sign of not having emunah.


I do agree with this based on my personal experience.

Years ago I was pregnant with young children and working to support my family while my husband was in long-term training. One of his relatives told him that the fact that the only reason I worked full-time was because I didn't love my children enough to spend more time with them, and because I lacked emunah. She felt that I should quit working and rely on charity and government programs.

Before this relative disparaged me to my husband that way, I had actually admired some of the choices she had made, and felt neutral about others. Afterward, though, I found myself feeling more judgemental of her choices for a while. Which I know is unkind, but it is how I felt.

That said, I didn't post in the other thread, either.
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 5:44 pm
farm wrote:
Agree with Fox that there are some party lines here. The question is why.
Like 3b2c said on the other thread, you get support and hugs for uncovering hair and sending you kid to public school but get spit on for protesting hand holding when niddah or having children you "can't" afford. Why are those the party lines?


In the larger world today, there is an overall agreement that the "underdog" is to be respected and supported above all else.

It makes sense, as a backlash against centuries of institutionalized minority hatred and discrimination at best, and brutality and slaughter at worst.

In my opinion, it's gone too far, because it is applied with no regard for actual truth.

(For me, an example is the overwhelming anti-Israel media slant when it comes to Muslim terror. I don't think it is ONLY antisemitism.... It's also an artifact of Israel being the more "powerful" entity in this arena (forget that the other 99% of the territory in this region is Arab controlled).

I think in a thread like this, or maybe overall on a site like Imamother, or maybe overall in certain Jewish communities, there is a perception on the part of those who are more modern, that those of stricter observance are the "administration" so to speak, to be battled at all costs. Also, I think in any system where some are stricter and some more lenient, it is human nature to see the strictness as more righteous, and those who choose more leniently are therefore in a position to feel defensive.

Hence, a bit of a drive to point out discrepancies, hypocrisy, anything that may "equalize" the dissonance, and show that those who seem more righteous, are not really so.

I'm not justifying it at all. But I do think there is some underlying human nature there. It goes on in all circles, anywhere there is an implied moral hierarchy. We are MO. My secular in-laws love to point out anything negative they can find about our observance. Because the obvious implication of us not doing what they do, is that we think that what they are doing is wrong. In this dichotomy, defensiveness and a desire to search for hypocrisy amongst those who "think they are more right" is pretty much human nature.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 6:02 pm
farm wrote:
Agree with Fox that there are some party lines here. The question is why.
Like 3b2c said on the other thread, you get support and hugs for uncovering hair and sending you kid to public school but get spit on for protesting hand holding when niddah or having children you "can't" afford. Why are those the party lines?


The reason why there was alot of friction in that niddah thread wasn't because of what they were doing or how they held. I think it was the I'm right and your wrong attitude. If I respectfully say that my rav paskened that ies
It's ok for me to hold my husband's hand during childbirth, I don't think people here would have a problem with it. I think people respect those that are less observant and don't maintain similar standards. It gets judgy when it's not a religious issue but a moral issue. Taking benefits by illicitly. Having children you can't afford and expecting others to pick up the tab is an ethical issue. I really think the line is right there.
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 6:28 pm
yogabird wrote:
Re: the subject of this thread, it's PC to be judgey about certain topics, and not PC to be judgey about certain other ones. Filtering down from the world at large.

Re: OP's first post, I think some things skip generations. Generation A will have a large family, generation B will have felt neglected and vow to do th opposite, generation C will have been lonely growing up and jealous of their friends with their many siblings and have a large family. And so on. Obviously this is a gross oversimplification, but I think there's quite a bit of truth to it.


It wasn't enough to like your comment, I was compelled to say here how much this resonates with my own views.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 22 2017, 8:32 pm
aleph wrote:
I think in a thread like this, or maybe overall on a site like Imamother, or maybe overall in certain Jewish communities, there is a perception on the part of those who are more modern, that those of stricter observance are the "administration" so to speak, to be battled at all costs. Also, I think in any system where some are stricter and some more lenient, it is human nature to see the strictness as more righteous, and those who choose more leniently are therefore in a position to feel defensive.

Hence, a bit of a drive to point out discrepancies, hypocrisy, anything that may "equalize" the dissonance, and show that those who seem more righteous, are not really so.

I'm not justifying it at all. But I do think there is some underlying human nature there. It goes on in all circles, anywhere there is an implied moral hierarchy. We are MO. My secular in-laws love to point out anything negative they can find about our observance. Because the obvious implication of us not doing what they do, is that we think that what they are doing is wrong. In this dichotomy, defensiveness and a desire to search for hypocrisy amongst those who "think they are more right" is pretty much human nature.

Agree 100 percent. We are facing demographic changes in the Jewish community that are leaving people a little rattled.

One change is the "drift to the right." A combination of factors in the last 30 years has led to the growth and power of more insular communities who often follow stricter interpretations of halacha and hashkafa. At the same time, some of the institutions associated with Modern Orthodoxy, such as YU and NCYI, have decreased in influence among observant Jews.

As someone in the yeshivish community, I think that's a dramatic oversimplification. I would suggest that the drift to the right is a lot less extreme than it's made out to be. There are a lot of guys wearing white shirts and black hats with wives who cover their hair -- but who are not really all that right-wing in their practices. In fact, my young adult kids regularly say things like, "He's yeshivish but chilled yeshivish." I'm just waiting for people to demand a "chilled yeshivish" forum on Imamother.

If you deal with the non-halachically observant organized Jewish world, the anger and confusion is really palpable. Conservative synagogues are folding like houses of cards, and Reform congregations are boosting their numbers by running pre-schools. They read the same statistics we do, and each year is bringing them closer to the day when the only Jews in America will be Orthodox Jews, however many ways we choose to slice-and-dice our identities.

So, yes, when your way of life feels under siege, it's tempting to pounce on negative news or stereotypes that you feel bolster your position. I always cringe, though, when I see attacks so transparently motivated by insecurity. If you really believe your practice is correct, you don't feel the need to make snarky comments or get riled up when someone criticizes you. Lions don't need to roar.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 23 2017, 5:54 am
Honestly, I feel nowadays you can do everything "right" - work hard, (both parents) even at professional jobs, and still, with the price of housing, tuition, and medical insurance, still not make enough to support more then a small family.

If I were a wealthy person I could think of nothing better to do with my money then supporting my hard working married children so that they could have more children and give them a Jewish education.
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 23 2017, 1:07 pm
amother wrote:
The reason why there was alot of friction in that niddah thread wasn't because of what they were doing or how they held. I think it was the I'm right and your wrong attitude. If I respectfully say that my rav paskened that ies
It's ok for me to hold my husband's hand during childbirth, I don't think people here would have a problem with it. I think people respect those that are less observant and don't maintain similar standards. It gets judgy when it's not a religious issue but a moral issue. Taking benefits by illicitly. Having children you can't afford and expecting others to pick up the tab is an ethical issue. I really think the line is right there.

Meh. Ethics differ based on your religion, society, ethnicity, culture. So to say people draw the line on ethical issue versus religious doesn't really work
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 23 2017, 1:24 pm
For me personally, I would like to think the difference is the "live and let live" has to do with personal choices (or bein adam l'makom), that don't affect me or hurt anybody. The judginess comes out when people do things that I believe affect me or other people, and that could mean physical safety, lifestyle, comfort, or bottom line.

But I don't know if I practice what I preach. Can someone suggest a chumrah that I judge that is bein adam l'makom? I probably do but can't think of an example.
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