S/O Why doesn't it bother me that it's a man's world?

amother

Smokey

Tue, Jul 04 2017, 2:03 am

amother wrote:

So a boy can live the hippie life n still be ok? I don't really understand . Both men n women r expected to be responsible as adults, whether raising kids or working to support them. A man who forces his wife to do what she doesn't want or if a wife forces her husband to do what he doesn't want... is there a difference? I don't think so

That's precisely the point. Why is the default that I have to put up with what I hate and he gets a choice? I hate housework as much as any man, if not more.

Obviously I bear babies because biologically only I can do that. There is no reason under the sun the man of the house can't diaper his progeny and sweep up their mess and bathe their sticky bodies.

There should be no forcing anything on either one. Both together decide how to deal with tasks they both find hard or unpleasant.

Ruchel

Tue, Jul 04 2017, 6:05 am

Listen eishes chayil, or read about Glikel of Hameln, Dolce of Worms. There's no reason to stay cooped up if that's not what you want.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 04 2017, 1:05 pm

amother wrote:

As per the determination of "gadol hametzuveh v'oseh . . ." our voluntary mitzvos can never be worth as much . . ."

🙁

I'm not G-d's accountant but I thought that this was referring to a psychological reality.
But if we are going to start going by the ledger and keeping points, who's to say that women can't excel in the mitzvos that they are mechuyov to do? Or that their degree of keeping the voluntary ones and their sincerity and kavanos, IOW the totality of the mitzvah, doesn't surpass that of a whole lot of men doing the same mitzvah, e.g. tefila, learning, lulav and esrog and beyond?

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 04 2017, 1:08 pm

amother wrote:

This may be y women shouldn't be learning Chazal in the first place... my Zeidy was fond of saying half Torah shebal peh is in Talmud the other half in old wives tales;) let the men get their ego boost from Gemara; it's not like that's the whole Torah obviously

WADR to your Zeidy, that's sad. I personally don't find Gemara satisfying. It could come from conditioning but I really personally - I don't expect everyone else to do the same - find the traditional type of learning more satisfying. (Say, Shira Smiles' weekly shiur.)
But chas v'shalom that I knock Gemara like that. I wouldn't have spent so much energy being machshiv those who learn (and their families) and facilitating the learning of my family members had I felt that way.

marina

Tue, Jul 04 2017, 3:23 pm

SpottedBanana wrote:

As I said on the other thread, men have more potential, but women are created closer to Hashem. So a man might need to live longer to achieve tikkun / olam haba -- which I guess means that men's "roles" are technically valued more, although men as people are not necessarily valued more.

What I'm trying to argue here in general is that Torah needs to be studied with the idea in mind that it was not meant to address women's roles, so explanations of such are only found in modern-day writings because they were only needed then. I was never really addressing you, goodmorning; I was addressing the posters who consistently cry "Torah is misogynist! 'Women's roles' is all apologetics!'" They make me Exploding anger

, both on here and in real life.

Other than esoteric kabbala sources, can you offer some pre-feminism sources for the bolded? Thx.

marina

Tue, Jul 04 2017, 3:26 pm

goodmorning wrote:

I think, and this needs to be said carefully, that the Torah did not discuss women's roles because it was obvious that women were "second-class" citizens, but before the age of feminism, that didn't bother anyone. Women were second-class citizens in societies all over the world; why should anyone expect differently from the Torah? It is only once women became equal citizens (in theory, anyway) that they began to wonder why the Torah does not grant them similar equality.

^^^ what she said.