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Taking DS to the womens bathroom
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 26 2017, 8:28 pm
ra_mom wrote:
Meaning they've already reached puberty and have had it medically reversed? Wink

So we are talking (theoretically, I assume?) about a 35-year-old man who is capable of using the restroom on his own, but who has undergone some procedure (medicinal/surgical) to make himself look pre-pubescent?

Why would such an individual need to use the women's room?
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Wed, Jul 26 2017, 8:32 pm
I think she was talking about transgendered people (specifically a man transitioning or transitioned to a woman) - but phrased it oddly.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 4:01 am
Squishy wrote:
All the molestation victims I have met or know of in the community were molested by members of the community at camp, school, shul, and on the school bus. I have met one of Webbermen's unindicted victims. They were victimized by rebbes, older boys, a bus driver. I know a victim who was molested at YSV and UTA camps. All molested by those more powerful and trusted in the community.

I don't know of one molestation victim in a public restroom.

Speak to YSV parents and instructors. They can set your mind at ease, but it does not change what happened there. Those instructors and parents are well thought of In the community. In same gender situations homosexuality increases.

You should fear your son being abused by those he trusts more.

How do you let your son use the toilets in school without you there? That is a dangerous place.

Edited for typo.


I'm a YSV alumni and I would never trust anyone in the administration. That school has been horrific to its students since the 1980s. I'm not sure what specific event you are talking about, but I don't trust leaders in the community just because they are leaders. I look at behavior, who is teaching and talk to parents, administrators and friends. I talk to people who randomly show up at the school. And yes, there is an element where I can't fully know, but I can do my due diligence. I can try to protect my kids, even if it doesn't always work out. Then we also communicate about touch and trust and what to do.

I don't walk around afraid. I walk around trying to prepare my kids for life and give them freedom they are ready for. I try to minimize the risk in the short term and long term. I'm not paranoid. I know that public bathrooms are an actual threat. I know that the discomfort of some women using the restroom is not worth my child being in a dangerous or precarious situation.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 4:03 am
amother wrote:
I function just fine thanks. Maybe your family should just stay home if they can't function In public restrooms respectfully.


We use them respectfully, we just disagree on what respectfully means. I can accept that you think I'm being disrespectful, but I don't expect you to change your behavior. You want me to change mine. Therefore, the issue is kind of in your lap. If you don't like how people behave in public, don't go to public spaces.

There are a lot of things I find that people do disrespectfully in public. But when I'm in public, unless it's illegal, I can't change that.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 4:34 am
saw50st8 wrote:
If you read Squishy's posts, she thinks I'm psychologically scarring my son by taking him to the ladies room. Being in public spaces usually does mean passing somewhat uncomfortable situations. How many people complain about women openly nursing in public? We all make different choices for our families and if you can't function in a public space in ways that might be uncomfortable for you, then you need to stay home. The world is full of different cultures and attitudes and some may not agree with your worldview. That's OK too.


I spoke to my doctor friend about this. After a back and forth where she thought I was asking about a disabled boy, this is what she wrote:

No, that is weird especially if the boy is completely normal in sense of physical, emotional and s-xual orientation. It is culturally not accepted so it is damaging.

You seem like a good caring mother, perhaps it might be in order to speak to your own expert because sometimes we can't things clearly that are close to us.

Additionally, I was serious about the bigger danger of molestation coming from within the community. The increase in molestation coming with same gender separation is also seen in such diverse places like concentration camps, English public schools, and prisons. Speaking with other parents and instructors.

Off the top of my head Yeshiva College, Yeshiva University HS, Kent School, Emma Willard, Choate Rosemary, Penn State, YSV come to mind. All had a good reputation.

We protect abusers, sometimes to protect the institution or the community, so the information of known abusers is not disseminated.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 4:44 am
saw50st8 wrote:
I'm a YSV alumni and I would never trust anyone in the administration. That school has been horrific to its students since the 1980s. I'm not sure what specific event you are talking about, but I don't trust leaders in the community just because they are leaders. I look at behavior, who is teaching and talk to parents, administrators and friends. I talk to people who randomly show up at the school. And yes, there is an element where I can't fully know, but I can do my due diligence. I can try to protect my kids, even if it doesn't always work out. Then we also communicate about touch and trust and what to do.

I don't walk around afraid. I walk around trying to prepare my kids for life and give them freedom they are ready for. I try to minimize the risk in the short term and long term. I'm not paranoid. I know that public bathrooms are an actual threat. I know that the discomfort of some women using the restroom is not worth my child being in a dangerous or precarious situation.


In or around 2007, the first grade rebbe was caught molesting boys in YSV. It was a scandal at the time. Regrettably there are so many molestation scandals involving Yesivas - many that I was not aware of, that it has been pushed back on Google.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 4:45 am
Squishy, you are just too funny. I'm not sure if your doctor comment is satire or not. It's absolutely hysterical! LOL Most of my friends take their older sons to the bathroom as well.

I'm not against protecting my kids from community molesters. I think the dangers are different and the vigilance is different. The protection is different.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 4:53 am
saw50st8 wrote:
Squishy, you are just too funny. I'm not sure if your doctor comment is satire or not. It's absolutely hysterical! LOL Most of my friends take their older sons to the bathroom as well.

I'm not against protecting my kids from community molesters. I think the dangers are different and the vigilance is different. The protection is different.


It is not satire. I promise you my friend is a recognized expert and has also been qualified many times in court as such. That was her exact response.

Perhaps because it is done by your friends, you don't realize how strange it is and how damaging. DH and my teens were horrified when I asked him about bringing am 11 year old in the ladies room. I don't expect you to take my word, nor the word of an anonymous "expert". I simply suggest you consult your own.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 4:59 am
My oldest is 9. Maybe your expert is not someone I would trust. Care to share who it is before I take it seriously? For now, it's just random rantings of a supposed doctor from someone on the internet.
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 5:02 am
Actually, both sides of this conversation are sort of dumb. I think it's stupid to be so strictly gender segregated that an 11 boy causes you so much discomfort. I think it's equally stupid to believe an 11 is going to routinely be s-xually assaulted in the 5 minutes he's in the men's room. These are just not reasonable evaluations of risk. I'm not going to be morally offended by seeing your clearly late elementary boy in the bathroom though.

The reason transgendered people have the right to use the washroom that matches their gender is because we segregate bathrooms according to gender. Female presenting people cause no issues. In fact, I'd assume most people from NY or any other other major metro have shared a bathroom with trans women without ever realizing.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 5:18 am
saw50st8 wrote:
My oldest is 9. Maybe your expert is not someone I would trust. Care to share who it is before I take it seriously? For now, it's just random rantings of a supposed doctor from someone on the internet.


Firstly, she wasn't ranting.

Secondly, I am definitely not sharing her name because I didn't ask her in advance. She may think I asked about a random 11 year old boy, which I did, but she is not aware this was for Imamother and Facebook.

My friend testifies in court for both sides, so the state and the defense take her seriously. I promise you, she is not a supposed doctor, nor am I imagining that I had a conversation.

Thirdly, I keep telling you to consult your own psychologist.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 5:33 am
petiteruchy wrote:
Actually, both sides of this conversation are sort of dumb. I think it's stupid to be so strictly gender segregated that an 11 boy causes you so much discomfort. I think it's equally stupid to believe an 11 is going to routinely be s-xually assaulted in the 5 minutes he's in the men's room. These are just not reasonable evaluations of risk. I'm not going to be morally offended by seeing your clearly late elementary boy in the bathroom though.

The reason transgendered people have the right to use the washroom that matches their gender is because we segregate bathrooms according to gender. Female presenting people cause no issues. In fact, I'd assume most people from NY or any other other major metro have shared a bathroom with trans women without ever realizing.


I didn't grow up gender segregated, so that is not my reason for discomfort. Why aren't bathrooms unisex ? You are also forgetting about the boy.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 7:18 am
I wouldn't be "morally offended" by seeing an 11-year-old boy in the ladies room with his mother, but I would assume either:

- the boy has a developmental issue
- the mother is wildy over-protective
- there is some sort of medical emergency and the mother rushed him to the bathroom to take care of it in the most expedient way possible
- he is actually a girl wearing boy's clothing
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 8:22 am
If you bring your 11 year old son to the women's bathroom, why do we have single gender restrooms at all? I am serious. Why stop at 11? Maybe a 12 year old or 13 year old isn't mature enough either. Maybe 23 year olds aren't ready as well... Where is the cut off age?

What if every woman who walked into the bathroom brought along an 11 year old? Would you feel comfortable using the bathroom then?
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 8:26 am
amother wrote:
I had to drive with my kids cross country. 6, 7 yr old boys 9 yr old girl. The rest rooms by the I80 are not a place I would leave my kids unattended.
Everone would go into their own stalls and lock. No oje came out until I was done. We washed and left. I would do that even if my boys were 10.
No one hung around. No one lurked. No one stared. Everyone was safe. If you were uncomfortable im sorry.



Thanks for hogging all the stalls. My kid in line behind you had an accident as you weren't fast enough and hogged 3 stalls unnecessarily waiting for the 4th...
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 9:20 am
LittleDucky wrote:
If you bring your 11 year old son to the women's bathroom, why do we have single gender restrooms at all? I am serious. Why stop at 11? Maybe a 12 year old or 13 year old isn't mature enough either. Maybe 23 year olds aren't ready as well... Where is the cut off age?

What if every woman who walked into the bathroom brought along an 11 year old? Would you feel comfortable using the bathroom then?


Actually, I don't know why we should have single-gender restrooms. Open them up to everyone! We'd probably need to get rid of urinals, though, even though they save space. Then we wouldn't have to debate this.

But in any case, in 8/10 cases of childhood z3xual assault, the child already knows the perpetrator.

Molestation usually requires privacy, and the ability of the perpetrator to get away. How much privacy is there in a public restroom, where people are in an out all the time? Maybe there's a greater need to vigilance in an isolated place. But if you see people going in and out every few minutes, how would anyone hide attacking a child? And how would an attacker get away when its so easy to block a single door?

When bathroom assaults do occur, almost all of them occur between children who are about the same age and who know each other.

About 23% of all 14 year olds are z3xually active. So for those who advocate bringing adolescent boys into the ladies' room, you need to understand that a very substantial percentage of those boys will not be innocent as toddlers.

I'm pretty surprised that a normal tween would ever agree to go into the ladies' room in any case. My sons certainly would not have.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 9:25 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Actually, I don't know why we should have single-gender restrooms. Open them up to everyone! We'd probably need to get rid of urinals, though, even though they save space. Then we wouldn't have to debate this.

But in any case, in 8/10 cases of childhood z3xual assault, the child already knows the perpetrator.

Molestation usually requires privacy, and the ability of the perpetrator to get away. How much privacy is there in a public restroom, where people are in an out all the time? Maybe there's a greater need to vigilance in an isolated place. But if you see people going in and out every few minutes, how would anyone hide attacking a child? And how would an attacker get away when its so easy to block a single door?

When bathroom assaults do occur, almost all of them occur between children who are about the same age and who know each other.

About 23% of all 14 year olds are z3xually active. So for those who advocate bringing adolescent boys into the ladies' room, you need to understand that a very substantial percentage of those boys will not be innocent as toddlers.

I'm pretty surprised that a normal tween would ever agree to go into the ladies' room in any case. My sons certainly would not have.


I mentioned I know boys who had relations at 12. They are the ones who had the opportunity.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 11:22 am
Squishy wrote:
I mentioned I know boys who had relations at 12. They are the ones who had the opportunity.

I seem to have lost the plot here.

What does having relations have to do with using the correct bathroom?
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rgr




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 11:26 am
How ' bout we agree to disagree on this one
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 11:39 am
DrMom wrote:
I seem to have lost the plot here.

What does having relations have to do with using the correct bathroom?


If they are capable of having relations at age 12, what is the cutoff for using the correct bathroom? Is 11.9 still ok? Some ladies don't realize how aware children are at that age. Biology is not different for protected boys. They may not say to mom, but they are quite aware that going into the ladies room is forbidden to almost all of their peers. They get to peek at forbidden territory.
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