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amother
Lemon


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 11:16 am
I hope I can clarify for some people what the op probably meant. In the frum communities, most women over 20 are married with a baby. Therefore, if a boss wants someone with experience, he will have to hire someone married and pay them a wage they can live on. Older single girls are more likely to leave to a better job or get a higher education. Bosses would rather pay a little more or give shorter hours, to have someone who will stay after they are trained in, then go through a bunch of girls, or non jews, for the matter, who will move on with their career or move out of town when they get married.
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 11:26 am
amother wrote:
I hope I can clarify for some people what the op probably meant. In the frum communities, most women over 20 are married with a baby. Therefore, if a boss wants someone with experience, he will have to hire someone married and pay them a wage they can live on. Older single girls are more likely to leave to a better job or get a higher education. Bosses would rather pay a little more or give shorter hours, to have someone who will stay after they are trained in, then go through a bunch of girls, or non jews, for the matter, who will move on with their career or move out of town when they get married.


so basically - boss only hires married Jewish women with atleast one child - so there is no wage for single employees since boss never hires single women.

so the real question is - what is the going rate for an office job in frum community for someone with 4 years experience.

(note that from the little I've read on this site - frum companies do hire women who aren't married - so what you say isn't accurate.)
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 11:41 am
amother wrote:
Where I live, there are only frum businesses and I am not able to travel for various reasons. Also, I do not have a degree.

I hear you about the degree. Thats what was stopping me. I actually recently completed mine which made a huge difference for me. I didnit mainly online and some in person classes at night, while working full time and 3 kids.

Without knowing your situation, I DO think that many people dont know what theh are truly capable of and limit themselves without knowing what one truly can do when pushed. And when push really does come to shove, we do it. That may mean more babysitting and longer commutes. Even a 2 year night course in legal assisting can open you up in ways that you cant imagine. And they need those evem in frum offices, but its skilled, so not many can qualify. Just a thought.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 11:48 am
amother wrote:
so basically - boss only hires married Jewish women with atleast one child - so there is no wage for single employees since boss never hires single women.

so the real question is - what is the going rate for an office job in frum community for someone with 4 years experience.

(note that from the little I've read on this site - frum companies do hire women who aren't married - so what you say isn't accurate.)


They hire a girl , girl gets married the next year , has a baby the next year and he doesn't want to keep on having to train new ppl constantly ..
anyhow in these communities , after 2-3 kids women stop working ..
as someone who suffers from infertility I've always had this argument , bh I work in an environment that is not like that ..

It's very hard for ppl who are not "in it" to understand
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 11:53 am
From my understanding most businesses do hire young girls out of school so that they start off with a lower wage cuz they r inexperienced. If they do well and are an asset to the company when said employee gets married or has a baby and boss doesn't want to lose his worker he will usually give her a raise or cut the hours. Not because she is married or because she had a baby. Only that this worker is experienced in that particular field. And regarding a nice workplace experience u will find Jewish and secular on both spectrums. Not all Frum bosses r nasty and discriminatory and not every secular one is great. To my knowledge of someone is looking to hire a full time experienced employee I don't know that the wages change cuz ur married and have a baby. I have 3 kids and took a part time job but was not offered any compensation for childcare.
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qwerty4




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 11:59 am
amother wrote:
They hire a girl , girl gets married the next year , has a baby the next year and he doesn't want to keep on having to train new ppl constantly ..
anyhow in these communities , after 2-3 kids women stop working ..
as someone who suffers from infertility I've always had this argument , bh I work in an environment that is not like that ..

It's very hard for ppl who are not "in it" to understand


You were paid less because you didn't have kids? I'm 'in it' with no kids (or husband) and am paid in line with my experience and qualifications, significantly above my workmates.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 12:08 pm
watergirl wrote:
I dont understand what point you're trying to make. I educated you? Can you explain a bit more? I cant tell if I should read aggression or sarcasm into your post.

ETA - in thinking about this some more -and if this doesnt apply to you, then take it for what its worth. If you were limiting yourself to only looking for work in your daled amos, in only a heimish environment, then that's what you will find. My whole working career, I worked in a frum environment and was treated like trash. Health insurance? HA! Break time? Paid sick leave? HA HA! Bosses discriminating like crazy. Finally I woke up. BH a million times over, my job in a non frum work place is the best job that I have ever had. Its a choice. People may not agree with me because where they live, this isn't whats "done". Well, going along with the crowd is also a choice.

I know that jobs are hard to come by. I know that its not easy to do something different. But look at the amazing frum women role models who we have now, who are working in the secular world and rocking at it! Breaking the barriers and leading the way for better jobs for all of us.


Zero sarcasm.. only a whole lot of thanks for educating me.
I do work for a frum employer now, but it's a large company and majority of the employees are not Jewish.
I agree with every word in the post in quoting as well. (Now that I know the difference.)
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 12:09 pm
amother wrote:
They hire a girl , girl gets married the next year , has a baby the next year and he doesn't want to keep on having to train new ppl constantly ..
anyhow in these communities , after 2-3 kids women stop working ..
as someone who suffers from infertility I've always had this argument , bh I work in an environment that is not like that ..

It's very hard for ppl who are not "in it" to understand


I'm not in it - but I understand. There are both discriminatory hiring practices, and discriminatory pay practices in 'frum companies'.

What gets me - and other posters here - is that people who are 'in it' are so sheltered that that they don't realize that this is not way 'it is' on the outside, and think this is generally 'accepted'.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 12:10 pm
amother wrote:
I'm not in it - but I understand. There are both discriminatory hiring practices, and discriminatory pay practices in 'frum companies'.

What gets me - and other posters here - is that people who are 'in it' are so sheltered that that they don't realize that this is not way 'it is' on the outside, and think this is generally 'accepted'.


Totally agree with you !!!
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amother
Olive


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 12:29 pm
qwerty4 wrote:
You were paid less because you didn't have kids? I'm 'in it' with no kids (or husband) and am paid in line with my experience and qualifications, significantly above my workmates.


I said I'm not paid less , but I know ppl that are ..
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 12:31 pm
In the secular world w/o a degree u can usually only land a minimum wage job. I don't know what there is "to get". Try getting a job in a decent non frum office with ur high school diploma and let me know the starting wage.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 12:35 pm
amother wrote:
In the secular world w/o a degree u can usually only land a minimum wage job. I don't know what there is "to get". Try getting a job in a decent non frum office with ur high school diploma and let me know the starting wage.

That is very far from the truth.
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mumofthree




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 12:44 pm
which part is untrue? I wrote "usually" cuz there will always b some exceptions, although afaik it's not the norm. If u check out any website that lists wages u will b surprised what the starting salary is for jobs that do require a degree.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 12:56 pm
mumofthree wrote:
which part is untrue? I wrote "usually" cuz there will always b some exceptions, although afaik it's not the norm. If u check out any website that lists wages u will b surprised what the starting salary is for jobs that do require a degree.


Factually (statistically) people with degrees earn more than people without degrees. This is nothing new. That is why one of the routes out of poverty is education.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 1:02 pm
mumofthree wrote:
which part is untrue? I wrote "usually" cuz there will always b some exceptions, although afaik it's not the norm. If u check out any website that lists wages u will b surprised what the starting salary is for jobs that do require a degree.

I have had many jobs before I got my degree. Other than my high school job at a burger shack, none paid min wage. Not the same oay as a degree would earn, but not near min wage. Most jobs in my area pay starting at $13/hour. Where I live, min wage is $8.76/hour.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 1:03 pm
MagentaYenta wrote:
Factually (statistically) people with degrees earn more than people without degrees. This is nothing new. That is why one of the routes out of poverty is education.

I agree completely. The day I brought my brand new shiny degree to my boss, I got a 14% raise. No extra babies required.

My point was that degreeless jobs pay more than min wage. Thats all.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 04 2017, 1:23 pm
watergirl wrote:
I agree completely. The day I brought my brand new shiny degree to my boss, I got a 14% raise. No extra babies required.

My point was that degreeless jobs pay more than min wage. Thats all.


Of course they do. Even if the job is not related to the degree. It shows an employer that you are capable of taking on long term commitments and responsibilities. Your degree can also tell the employer that you can work with others in diverse populations or that you have the ability to read, comprehend and explain complex issue, regulations, policies etc. These are just a few things a degree tells someone.

In state service here an entry level office specialist (secretary 1) is required to have at the minimum a college degree and 2years experience or 6 years experience in a field where the duties and responsibilities are equal to those of the position. That job may start at only $30k but it has ins, reasonable sick, vacation and personal leave, religious accommodation, opportunity for promotions, regular COLAs and a retirement program. Total compensation is is something that is important to consider. You can get the same job at a small business in the private sector for less than .50 cents an hour more but no benefits.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 08 2017, 2:29 am
out-of-towner wrote:
The point that people are trying to make is that having children and paying a babysitter have nothing to do with the amount that an employer is going to offer. YOU have to decide whether that pay level is worth it for you to work.

I think in some cases that's the key - OP said she has been working 4 years as a secretary. A secretary who has been with the same office for 4 years can have a lot of value because they understand how your business works and can do their job better because of it. There can be quite a steep learning curve to hire someone new, especially if (as in many offices) the "secretary" is really more of an office manager. So it would be perfectly reasonable for the employer to offer better compensation to make it worth it for the employee to stay with them. It's not in the employer's best interest to have the secretary say the job is not worth keeping anymore because the babysitting eats up the salary.

I can't speak for anyone else and I only read the first few posts. While it's true that it would be discriminatory to have a general payroll policy that depends on employees' marital status or family size, the original responses to OP jumped to that conclusion on their own, and jumped hard. The OP question in itself did not have to be viewed so offensively.
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