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Areas where modern orthodox are more machmir
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tapuz




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 4:19 pm
More MO men wear techeiless in their tzitizis than Chareidi men do.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 4:24 pm
tapuz wrote:
More MO men wear techeiless in their tzitizis than Chareidi men do.


Is that really being machmir? If everyone agreed that the techeiles that's used is techeiles, maybe then it could be called being machmir. But if you don't think it's techeiles, then we're talking apples and oranges.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 5:34 pm
5 pages and I can't believe no one has mentioned that MO communities are more machmir when it comes to dina d'malchusa dina.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 5:42 pm
amother wrote:
5 pages and I can't believe no one has mentioned that MO communities are more machmir when it comes to dina d'malchusa dina.

And I was thinking that MO schools are more machmir of loving every jewish child enough to accept them all into their schools - and accomodate.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 6:30 pm
Judgmental is a personality not specific to any denomination. Some MO are judgmental - just about different things.

I love and respect all types of Jews. But this thread makes me uncomfortable. You're saying the RW aren't so careful about tzaar baalei chayim? And shalom bayis? And a lot of the stuff on this thread are stereotypes, sometimes true and sometimes not true.
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Shuly




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 6:45 pm
Do MO love and respect others who keep MORE halachos than they do, as much as they love and respect non-Jews or Jews who keep less than they do?

I know a number of chareidi parents who happily let their sons go to the army because that was best for them.
But I can't think of one MO (DL) parent who happily agreed with their child's decision to join a charedi yeshiva and opt out of army service.

How many MO parents are totally accepting of their child who decides to wear black hat, sheitel, learn in kollel...?

If they are honestly machmir in this area, they have to be machmir in both directions.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 6:54 pm
Simple1 wrote:


. But this thread makes me uncomfortable.


Merely uncomfy? This thread makes me sick. I knew from the first post that it was going to end up being a giant cauldron of pure LH.
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kjb




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 7:34 pm
Well, I've only read the first two pages of the thread, but I HAVE to say this- are we supposed to believe that moral values had no importance for Hashem when he handed down halacha? That his laws were just some sort of crazy random rules like the ones in a board game - snakes and ladders say, or monopoly - just there to provide interesting obstacles to success and to sort out the winners from the losers? That his laws are value-free? If that is so, then that's the minute I go off the derech.

I have always been taught that hashem's halacha is based on deep imponderable moral wisdom, and that it actually represents a 'cosmic' moral guidebook, one which generations of talmid chochim have studied tirelessly to understand and explain: a moral guide that stops man - or jew - being wolf to man. Part of this morality, of course, is that one should obey and fear G-d, and for that reason we obey certain halakhot even if we don't understand the moral underpinning. And part of that morality is that we should understand that the price of our role as the 'chosen people' means we have to follow certain stringent and uncomfortable rules that the rest of humanity doesn't have to worry about, because such an honourable position does not come free.

But the idea that halacha as a whole has nothing to do with moral values? To me that's heretical. And I hope I'm not offending anybody by saying that.

And saying all this is NOT the same as saying ' I'm going to decide what values I hold by and I'm going to individually interpret halacha to fit them.' But it IS saying that Torah is actually based on REAL morality, the values, in general, that we as humans know to be good. Values that work towards morally and spiritually perfecting Hashem's world as their end point. .Torah is not just about cutting your beard in exactly the right way for no reason at all except that its in the play book, but a route map for the proper observance of Hashem's law as the path to real, moral goodness - towards G-d, towards humanity, towards yourself, to Jewish generations past, present and future, and towards the universe. And THAT is my understanding of judaism in which ever variant: left wing, right wing, MO, Yeshivish, Chassidic, or burkha (perhaps not!) And the fact that others do it slightly differently from you should not obscure the fact that those others are struggling in the same direction

End of Rant.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 7:55 pm
I am not finding this thread to be upsetting. I think people are bringing up interesting questions and points. I find many other threads to be offensive, but I am reading this more as a open conversation with real thoughts and questions then an attack on anyone . But if a lot of people really do feel it's offensive, then perhaps it should be closed.
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kjb




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 8:26 pm
Tichellady - I don't think its offensive at all. I actually think its one of the more civilised and interesting threads I've read on imamother. Well done for starting it and continuing it so respectfully. There seems to be a genuine debate going on here and not really any mud flinging.. I'm rather embarrassed that my post above was over passionate. 'Heretical' was an inappropriate word. Apologies. I don't actually think any posters on this site are 'heretical' and when I used that word I truly had no particular poster or sect in mind. but I do believe that basically all of us think halacha has something to do with morality and thus, if you think about it, 'values'. If anyone thinks differently, I'm genuinely interested in what they have to say.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 8:29 pm
kjb wrote:
Well, I've only read the first two pages of the thread, but I HAVE to say this- are we supposed to believe that moral values had no importance for Hashem when he handed down halacha? That his laws were just some sort of crazy random rules like the ones in a board game - snakes and ladders say, or monopoly - just there to provide interesting obstacles to success and to sort out the winners from the losers? That his laws are value-free? If that is so, then that's the minute I go off the derech.

I have always been taught that hashem's halacha is based on deep imponderable moral wisdom, and that it actually represents a 'cosmic' moral guidebook, one which generations of talmid chochim have studied tirelessly to understand and explain: a moral guide that stops man - or jew - being wolf to man. Part of this morality, of course, is that one should obey and fear G-d, and for that reason we obey certain halakhot even if we don't understand the moral underpinning. And part of that morality is that we should understand that the price of our role as the 'chosen people' means we have to follow certain stringent and uncomfortable rules that the rest of humanity doesn't have to worry about, because such an honourable position does not come free.

But the idea that halacha as a whole has nothing to do with moral values? To me that's heretical. And I hope I'm not offending anybody by saying that.

And saying all this is NOT the same as saying ' I'm going to decide what values I hold by and I'm going to individually interpret halacha to fit them.' But it IS saying that Torah is actually based on REAL morality, the values, in general, that we as humans know to be good. Values that work towards morally and spiritually perfecting Hashem's world as their end point. .Torah is not just about cutting your beard in exactly the right way for no reason at all except that its in the play book, but a route map for the proper observance of Hashem's law as the path to real, moral goodness - towards G-d, towards humanity, towards yourself, to Jewish generations past, present and future, and towards the universe. And THAT is my understanding of judaism in which ever variant: left wing, right wing, MO, Yeshivish, Chassidic, or burkha (perhaps not!) And the fact that others do it slightly differently from you should not obscure the fact that those others are struggling in the same direction

End of Rant.


I agree
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kjb




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 24 2017, 8:33 pm
thank you!
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staten islander




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 25 2017, 9:00 am
Definitely educating each child in Torah regardless of whether his mom drives,wears nail polish, denim ,etc.
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Studious




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 25 2017, 10:14 am
In emphasizing the Tzelem Elokim in women. I often feel that haredi Judaism mainly emphasizes the fact that women are a s-xual stumbling block in the public sphere. While everyone sees both, the different sides each emphasize something else.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Fri, Aug 25 2017, 10:17 am
Shuly wrote:
Do MO love and respect others who keep MORE halachos than they do, as much as they love and respect non-Jews or Jews who keep less than they do?

I know a number of chareidi parents who happily let their sons go to the army because that was best for them.
But I can't think of one MO (DL) parent who happily agreed with their child's decision to join a charedi yeshiva and opt out of army service.

How many MO parents are totally accepting of their child who decides to wear black hat, sheitel, learn in kollel...?

If they are honestly machmir in this area, they have to be machmir in both directions.


The attitude is the problem. If I thought being yeshivish meant keeping more halachos, I'd be yeshivish. I'm not MO because I'm lazy, but because I see this path as an ideal vehicle for avodas Hashem.

The army thing (and I'm a mom of two boys who did hesder) is very fraught here. I don't think we should widen the discussion - we all know the arguments on both sides. Suffice it to say that many religious boys serve because they see it as an obligation to the Jewish people, not because they want to get out of learning.
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