s/o great people *never* lie just for their own benefit

amother

Ivory

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 8:10 am

I heard this story directly from Ido Unterman, grandson of Rav Isser Yehuda Unterman,
זצ"ל chief Rabbi of Israel 1964-72.

In those days the dangers of smoking were not so widely known, and smoking on Yom Tov was accepted practice. Rav Unterman had at the time been a smoker. He was once offered a lght (flame) for a cigarette either (I can't remember which) on Shabbat, when it is not permitted, or from a new (not preexisting) flame on Yom Tov (also not permitted). Not wishing to embarrass the person, the Rav answered "I don't smoke". But wishing to have NEVER spoken dishonestly - HE NEVER SMOKED AGAIN IN HIS LIFE. He made the statement be a true statement by his future actions.

Now, THAT is Emet.

SixOfWands

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 9:12 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Great thread. But let's bear in mind that the times Rav Ploni told his wife that the cake was tasty, or that the dress was elegant don't make it into the biographies.

No great man ever answered the question, "does this make my butt look like the back of a bus" or "tell me the truth, is your mother's chicken soup better than mine" with an honest yes.

imasinger

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 9:15 am

SixOfWands wrote:

No great man ever answered the question, "does this make my butt look like the back of a bus" or "tell me the truth, is your mother's chicken soup better than mine" with an honest yes.

The truly great ones know diplomacy.

"I think you look beautiful in that".

"Why compare? I love your chicken soup, and hers."

Do we need a discussion on the difference between dishonesty and tact?

Chayalle

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 1:17 pm

There's a story told about R' Yaakov Kaminetsky, that he was once invited to a family for a Pesach meal where, for various reasons, he did not wish to go. He also did not want to insult them. He told the family that he does not eat gebrokts, and did not brok for the rest of his life.

amother

Beige

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 1:32 pm

imasinger wrote:

"Why compare? I love your chicken soup, and hers."

OUCH. It's a dumb question but still an very ouchy answer.

As for liars for shalom... Mmm, Moshe Rabbenu? G-D???

There are such heterim. Don't do it if you'd not like. Leave others be unless you are offering them a solution THEY would like.

SixOfWands

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 1:42 pm

imasinger wrote:

The truly great ones know diplomacy.

"I think you look beautiful in that".

"Why compare? I love your chicken soup, and hers."

Do we need a discussion on the difference between dishonesty and tact?

No we don't.

But "I love both ..." is clearly "her's is better."

White lies are social lubricants. "We can't make it" not "I'd rather have root canal than spend the evening with you." "I'm not very hungry" not "that's a roast? I thought it was a flat tire." "I'm not feeling well" not "I just had a huge argument with my husband" "Something came up" not "its mikvah night --woo-hoo!"

And can you imagine finding out that Rabbi BigWig loved -- LOVED -- someone else's matzo balls last year, but now he's going to spend the rest of his life not eating them because that's better than getting stuck eating at your house.

imasinger

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 1:56 pm

Sigh.

I don't know what your issue is about the soup.

Let me explain it like this.

Miss Manners, aka Judith Martin, explains that sometimes, you have to look for the real meaning of the question, and answer that.

It's called tact, not lying.

Like if the person sitting next to you on the plane asks if you want to see pictures of their grandchildren, and well, no, you wouldn't.

But the real question is, "will you give me permission to share a very precious part of my life?". To which the only decent answer, under normal circumstances, is yes.

HKBH gives us examples of this, in Vaeira. So, later, does Moshe Rabbeinu.

It's serving a deeper truth.

That's quite different from lying to benefit oneself.

I'll say what I said before. You find me rabbeim who will say that there is a blanket heter to LIE.

I haven't yet seen anyone post any such thing, and I highly doubt I will. Because every rav I've read speaks of the importance of truth.

That doesn't mean tactlessness, or blurting out every little thing.

Does that make sense?

Last edited by imasinger on Tue, Sep 05 2017, 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ivory

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 4:53 pm

Thank you imasinger, who as usual managed to understand what I was actually carrying on about.

Everyone else - you are right in the sense that the is often a conflict in this world between the forces of Emet and Shalom and many moral debates are simply about which of these forces should prevail in a given situation.

I have edited the title of this thread because really as soon as you say "always" or "never" about anything you are probably setting yourself up for trouble.

Someone can remind us of the story in the Talmud about "katzad reakdim lifnei hakalah- kalah neah vchasudah" where someone says you can say it about even an objectively ugly kallah because on the day of her wedding the shechina is shining on her face and therefore she IS beautiful, or, she is the most beautiful she will ever be on this day. Sorry can't remember the details and no time to.look it up now.

About the soup there is a thing that if he really loves his wife he will actually love her soup better if he knows it's hers, even if his taste buds normally favor the other flavor- can't remember the details of that one either.