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crust

Thu, Sep 07 2017, 11:42 pm

Seas wrote:

It's ironic that very often the same people who are extremely lax with following the Shulchan Aruch and Torah laws - and of course we mustn't judge them for after all in 'their community' this is the (sub)standard - are so extremely particular, or at least pretend to be extreme particular, in following the laws of the land. Specifically tax laws.

Rabbi Ben tzion Shafer has a great schmooze on why this happens. He is very clear.

DrMom

Fri, Sep 08 2017, 2:30 am

To whom do these credit card fees get paid? The credit card company?

If so, isn't this "professional" cheating the credit card company by using this alternative arrangement?

amother

Cerise

Fri, Sep 08 2017, 2:51 am

Don't know if a halachic issue, but definatley not professional.

33055

Fri, Sep 08 2017, 5:28 am

pause wrote:

I'm assuming you meant as in lifnim meshuras hadin, yes?

Yes and Vihyitem neki’im meihashem umiyisrael.

tichellady

Fri, Sep 08 2017, 3:49 pm

pause wrote:

I'm assuming you meant as in lifnim meshuras hadin, yes?

Why can't there be an ethical system outside of the halakhic system? Interesting discussion here: http://etzion.org.il/en/shiur-.....h-law

amother

Blonde

Fri, Sep 08 2017, 4:17 pm

DrMom wrote:

To whom do these credit card fees get paid? The credit card company?

If so, isn't this "professional" cheating the credit card company by using this alternative arrangement?

no. he is not bound by the credit card company that he uses to only use them when he receives payment. If they don't process a transaction for him - they don't get a fee.

zaq

Fri, Sep 08 2017, 5:20 pm

amother wrote:

of course there is no halachic issue, halacha doesn't refer to the internal revenue code.

I do hope you just forgot to insert your sarcasm alert here. Or are you not familiar with the principle of dina demalchuta dina?

amother

Blonde

Fri, Sep 08 2017, 5:32 pm

zaq wrote:

I do hope you just forgot to insert your sarcasm alert here. Or are you not familiar with the principle of dina demalchuta dina?

The entirety of what I wrote:

Organizations paying an employees grocery bill instead of a salary is a taxable benefit to the employee. If they aren't including it on the employee's W-2, its wrong. Other than not following the laws of the land - of course there is no halachic issue, halacha doesn't refer to the internal revenue code.

I just said it in English.

amother

Taupe

Sat, Sep 09 2017, 9:03 pm

Hi everyone, OP here. Thanks for all the responses! I am going to try to respond to as many of them as I can:

seeker wrote:

Well, legally one would consult a lawyer, halachically one would consult a posek, and to me ethics means following the law and the halacha.
But personally I think that if it is a known thing in certain communities or locations that people do this kind of setup to evade taxes, then I would not have any part in it even though it is technically possible that the professional will do all the correct record-keeping and reporting. But if that's not the case, then I'd say it's awkward in terms of the professional-client relationship but otherwise OK (as long as there is no legal objection)

Interesting that the school doesn't charge a CC fee, don't they end up taking a loss that way?

Yes, I know I may need to consult a lawyer and rabbi, but I wanted to get a feel for the issues beforehand. Does anyone know how I can contact the appropriate lawyer? Do lawyers take random questions from non-clients? Any other practical tips?

By ethics I meant along the lines of "it's technically ok, but not in the spirit of the law".

I have no idea if it's commonly done in the community. This is the first I'm hearing of it and I'm not part of the professional's community.

ETA: I believe most non-profits don't charge a CC fee to donors/payers and pay it themselves. The school would need to pay the fee whether the client or professional paid the tuition, so they wouldn't be losing any extra money by the client paying.

amother

Taupe

Sat, Sep 09 2017, 9:07 pm

Squishy wrote:

If the professional declares the income and pays taxes on it, I think it is fine. If the professional doesn't declare the income, then you could be an accomplice to tax fraud and/ or other government and private frauds.

Check with your attorney in your jurisdiction.

Halachically, it is probably fine. I say that because I see this done all the time. Organizations will pay grocery bills instead of salary.

How am I supposed to know if he will pay taxes on it? I guess I can ask him, but I imagine a verbal affirmation may not protect me if there's ever a legal problem down the line.

amother

Taupe

Sat, Sep 09 2017, 9:13 pm

nicole81 wrote:

I just wanted to say that for all this talk of a professional, this sounds rather unprofessional.

LittleDucky wrote:

Sounds like boundary violations to me... I would look into the professional licensing body of that individual. In healthcare (including mental), I would say that is a big no-no. The relationship needs to be purely professional.
What if they don't pay the school?
What about taxes etc - check with an attorney.

Yes, this professional's suggestion definitely rubbed me the wrong way at first, which is why I'm looking into it to see if it is actually problematic or if it just sounds fishy. Although someone else involved appreciated the professional's creativity to try to work out a way to save us money (assuming it's legal of course!)

We would be paying the school directly, so the school would definitely be getting paid.

amother

Taupe

Sat, Sep 09 2017, 9:19 pm

Seas wrote:

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I try to follow the Torah and laws of the land to the best of my ability, although I surely have room for improvement in both areas!

amother

Blonde

Sat, Sep 09 2017, 9:20 pm

amother wrote:

You would save money if you just paid directly by check.

Are you doing this for points?

Also - for-profit businesses generally do not charge customers extra for paying with credit cards - non-for-profits do. I'm wondering how ethical it is for a business (the professional is a business) to charge a credit card patient more than a check patient.

Most professionals who don't want the expense of credit cards, just don't accept them.

LittleDucky

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 11:37 am

amother wrote:

What kind of professional was it?

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