One of Us (new documentary about ex-Chassidish ppl)

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amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:20 am

amother wrote:

Because it doesn't - by definition.

Diagnosis is the identification of the nature of an illness or other problem by examination of the symptoms.

We don't know that unless we take a history. Doctors take history in order to make a diagnosis.
Haven't you ever filled out that form that asks for your medical history before seeing a new doctor?

Even emergency personnel take a history before making rule out diagnoses.

amother

Aqua

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:20 am

There's so many convos going on in this thread....

People should realize though that yes, there are families in super frum communities that take kids to psych wards or medicate them when they are going otd. Happened to a friend of mine, but the psych ward let them out after a day. That's still ammo for a family who wants to trash the otd child's name. ("They were in a psych ward! Don't believe them!")

Also, mentally ill people are often targeted for abuse. Why should anyone believe them? They clearly have issues, right? Rolling Eyes

I agree that some story isn't adding up over here. In the chassidish community, no "normal" guy is going to marry someone who "everyone knows has issues". So either her dh also had issues or the narrative that everyone knew she had issues isn't true.

This whole thing about nature vs nurture with mental illness is something scientists are still grappling with. It's naive to think that just because one professor said something, it's the be all end all. They're all learning. I can tell you in my own family that everyone is convinced that there is a gene for mental illness. Every single family member who is used to demonstrate this also experienced severe trauma, most over prolonged periods of time. For example, I've personally witnessed one individual repeatedly beaten severely as a child by their parents while being yelled at over and over that they are a nothing and will amount to nothing. (I was a child too, hence my inability to speak up.) Now, surprise! They are an adult with depression.

Some of you can claim that this person had a gene that was triggered that caused the depression. But can we really be certain? Isn't it possible that you can take a perfectly normal person, but if they are beaten regularly by those who should nurture them and told they are nothing, and will amount to nothing, that they will develop low self esteem and depression?

Now people can look at this person's siblings and say, but not all of them have depression! Yes, but not all of them were severely beaten. I've lived with this family and it's amazing to me that those who were most abused have the worst mental issues. Those who weren't, have regular people issues.

Of course the victims, including the perpetrators, blame the depression on genetics. When they talk to psychiatrists, they talk about the family history of depression and conveniently forget the rampant abuse. It's so much easier to talk about what you can't control than take responsibility or admit your parent hurt you. This is what goes into studies. This is what professors talk about. This is why some people think it's all about genetics.

Of course that's not to say that all people who have mental illness were abused. There are plenty of people for whom genetics alone was the cause. But trauma and long term abuse can certainly change a person's psyche, even if they were born normative.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:21 am

amother wrote:

Not sure of your point. misdiagnosis happens across all branches of medicine.

If they would have taken a proper history, they may not have misdiagnosed her.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:26 am

amother wrote:

It's possible. Time will tell. Psychology and medicine are still very young.
Did you know that many of the diagnoses in the DSM-V were still not researched properly?
Time will tell.

Yes, many of the diagnoses in the DSM-V were not researched properly (or as I personally think, were made up).

But schizophrenia, which is what this course focused on, is very well researched, and there is a clear genetic link.

I don't know about other serious illnesses such as bipolar or depression.

Again, I don't think that all abusers are mentally ill, and I also don't think that all abusees are mentally ill, even if they can appear that way at some point.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:26 am

Well said aqua!

amother

Babypink

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:40 am

You know what I find absolutely fascinating?

The thread about gay people was shut down after three postings (or was it two?) on the excuse that the discussion never ends well...

But when it comes to seething antisemitism (yes, let's call a spade a spade!) in regards to chasidim, the thread is allowed to just go on and on and on...

Some of the posters on here are cesspits of hate towards their brethren, completely blinded to the fact that not all chasidim are evil or made by cookie cutter, devoid of personality.

It's quite sick.

crust

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:43 am

amother wrote:

I agree that some story isn't adding up over here. In the chassidish community, no "normal" guy is going to marry someone who "everyone knows has issues". So either her dh also had issues or the narrative that everyone knew she had issues isn't true.

This whole thing about nature vs nurture with mental illness is something scientists are still grappling with. It's naive to think that just because one professor said something, it's the be all end all. They're all learning.

I can tell you in my own family that everyone is convinced that there is a gene for mental illness.
Every single family member who is used to demonstrate this also experienced severe trauma, most over prolonged periods of time.

For example, I've personally witnessed

one individual repeatedly beaten severely as a child by their parents while being yelled at over and over that they are a nothing and will amount to nothing. (I was a child too, hence my inability to speak up.) Now, surprise! They are an adult with depression.

Some of you can claim that this person had a gene that was triggered that caused the depression. But can we really be certain? Isn't it possible that you can take a perfectly normal person, but if they are beaten regularly by those who should nurture them and told they are nothing, and will amount to nothing, that they will develop low self esteem and depression?

Now people can look at this person's siblings and say, but not all of them have depression! Yes, but not all of them were severely beaten. I've lived with this family and it's amazing to me that those who were most abused have the worst mental issues. Those who weren't, have regular people issues.

Of course the victims, including the perpetrators, blame the depression on genetics. When they talk to psychiatrists, they talk about the family history of depression and conveniently forget the rampant abuse. It's so much easier to talk about what you can't control than take responsibility or admit your parent hurt you. This is what goes into studies. This is what professors talk about. This is why some people think it's all about genetics.

Of course that's not to say that all people who have mental illness were abused. There are plenty of people for whom genetics alone was the cause. But trauma and long term abuse can certainly change a person's psyche, even if they were born normative.

Can't like this post especially the bolded, enough. I keep trying to make a point but I did not take the time to spell it out so it should be as clear as you put it.
Thanks!

Last edited by crust on Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total

Mommyg8

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 12:45 am

amother wrote:

Nature vs. nurture does not come into play here?! Are you sure?
Running in families can mean that certain thought patterns run in certain families. Can't it?
I mean if matriarch had dysfunctional thought patterns, but did not get diagnosed with mental illness, and then two of her children adopted said thought patterns but much more deeply ingrained, and then their kids adopted same thought patterns.
Now what happens if there is trauma to any of the children with these thought patterns?
If they develop mental illness, do we say that it is caused by a genetic mutation?
What about the fact that we now know that genes evolve (is that the right word?) throughout our life, based on different factors?

I think about these things, because yes, I've had exposure to mental illness, and I'm a curious person.

So, I'm questioning the statement that when mental illness runs in families it's caused by genetic predisposition, on a completely physical level.

Serious emotional disorders such as schizophrenia has been very well researched, and they used twins who were raised apart as their research material. The genetic link seems to be very strong.

crust

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 1:23 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Serious emotional disorders such as schizophrenia has been very well researched, and they used twins who were raised apart as their research material. The genetic link seems to be very strong.

I specifically did not mention schizophrenia because from what I know it is completly not trauma related.
Having said that, I will add that someone I know, who was 'diagnosed' as schizophrenic, and was hospitalized more than once by her extremely vicious husband, is surprisingly not schizophrenic anymore!

Again, this diagnosis was made while not seeing the full picture.
This woman was petrified to tell hospital staff why she was trying to end her life.
Telling them that her husband is a tyrant and is constantly threatening her with death threats would also equal death once she was released. She was in a catch 22.
Out if fear, she ended up responding to them in a way that came across with symptoms most similar to schizophrenic symptoms.
So they diagnosed her schizophrenic.

Long story short.
At the end her husband went what I can't call OTD because he never was on a Derech. Lets just say that he dropped everything and everyone and took off to a third world country and she could finally breathe her normalcy again.
No pills. No diagnosis. No nothing. Everything went out the window.

I'm just pointing out that even schizophrenia can be misused.

Mommyg8

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 1:36 am

crust wrote:

That is really horrible! Of course I don't mean that kind at all....

amother

Slategray

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 4:59 am

amother wrote:

How do you know that she had a real diagnosis? And why did her family agree to marry her off to a perfectly healthy man if they knew that she was mentally ill? It doesnt make sense especially in the chasidishe community to make a shidduch like that so it must be that Ettys family lied, either to her friends/classmates or to the shadchan/chassans family about her mental illness. But even if she were really mentally ill, and everyone, including the shadchan and the chassans family, knew about it then why is it not possible for the husband to abuse her? Especially since its more common for people who have problems and/or were abused growing up to attract abusers when they are older so it is possible for her husband to have abused her then deny it and point out that she is too mentally ill to know the truth. After all, why would he marry a girl with a well known mental illness if he himself is not abusive or even mentally ill as well?
I wonder what the story would be if he had been OTD while she stayed religious. Would you still say she was a liar and mentally ill or would he have been the one who was mentally ill who abused his poor religious wife? Because it seems like the community automatically sides with the party that stays frum while the OTD party is automatically mentally ill to the point where its hard to take any of these allegations (of mental illness of OTD people) seriously.

You don't know for a fact that she was abused.. I know of someone who was semi -chassidish who made up abuse by her TWO ex husbands.. I know that she was unstable because her daughter (my cousin now sister in law ) told me that she would have to take care of her sister and be the mom whenever her mother was off her bipolar meds!!! Her two ex husbands are good people who loved their daughters dearly but were demonized for well over 30 years!!! My sil's sister was afraid to tell her own children that they had met their grandfather because she was afraid of her mother's wrath!! Both ex husbands felt the need to leave their daughters rather than continue to have the kids deal with the chaos.. and it wasn't because they didnt' care.. and I know at least one of the set of paternal grandparents were threatened at GUNPOINT if their son didn't stay away.. and the ex dh was threatened that HE would have every limb broken if he didn't stay away from his daughter.. so it's not unheard of for the woman to be nuts and to abuse the husband!!!!!!

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 5:30 am

amother wrote:

Taking a history is not a study of causation, its fact gathering.

imasoftov

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 7:17 am

creditcards wrote:

Can we assume that the one who suffered a breakdown had the gene?

Here's how scientists investigate possible genetic causes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....etics

imasoftov

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 7:21 am

amother wrote:

You could contact a moderator by reporting your own post.

amother

Aubergine

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 7:25 am

I'm not sure what anyone is trying to say here anymore.

Sure, everyone agrees that many mental illnesses are brought on by trauma.
But all, is quite a statement to make especially since there's definitely a genetic component as well as a physiological one which can cause it.

And everyone also agrees that sometimes doctors misdiagnose mental illnesses. Just as they sometimes misdiagnose every illness under the sun. And therefore what?

amother

Salmon

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 9:04 am

amother wrote:

This entire discussion was worth it for me to have read this question.
I don't know the answer, but I intend to find out eventually.
It will really help me in my career. Thank you!

The answer is no.

amother

Firebrick

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 9:09 am

amother wrote:

Because in pseudo intellectual liberal society making fun of and hating Chasidim is acceptable. Speaking against gays isn't. That attitude is being mirrored on Imamother.

Yael

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 10:12 am

amother wrote:

Because in pseudo intellectual liberal society making fun of and hating Chasidim is acceptable. Speaking against gays isn't. That attitude is being mirrored on Imamother.

I'm sorry you feel that way but this is not accurate at all. Anyone who wants clarification on why the topic of homosexuality was banned can pm me.
It is not acceptable to bash chassidim on Imamother and gays don't have a protected status to not get bashed. I can't believe some of you think this. I'm so flabbergasted I don't even know what to say.

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