Friend has Gentile Live-in. Can we eat by her?

thunderstorm

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:07 pm

My sister has a nanny who turns on the stove and cooks. This renders her pots treif. Even though all her food she makes is kosher.
I don't eat in my sisters home. But she brings food and cooks it in my house if she is visiting and wants to chip in. I would've never had an issue eating by her. But she told me that her nanny cooks and turns the fire on. If my sister turned the fire on it wouldn't be an issue.
There are lots of super frum people with live ins. The live ins are not the issue. It all depends on how they were trained to work in a kosher kitchen

33055

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:24 pm

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

It is a lot more complicated than that. I am by far from being an expert, but I asked a shayla because one of my neighbors whose knowledge of Judaism is questionable insisted another one of our neighbor's food was treif for that reason. The neighbor whose food was in question is an extremely frum man who learns everyday. His expertise is in food. It was inconceivable to me that he would let treif food be served in his house.

The way it was explained to me was a Jew must do something significant in the preparation* of the food. Turning on the stove was a significant step, but there are other significant steps.

*I can't remember if it was cooking or preparation.

Again, I am not an expert, but the food is ruled kosher.

thunderstorm

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 7:53 am

Squishy wrote:

I hear your point. However in my case the nanny does the full cooking from beginning to end while my sister is out of the house.

thunderstorm

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 10:48 am

doctorima wrote:

Just curious BDM - I also learned the halacha the way you said it, but does your sister (and BIL) know that this is a halachic issue, and that this is why you don't eat there? Did their Rav give them a different p'sak, or do they just not care and do it anyway?

My sister chooses not to care. She understands my issue and respects me for it. Im close to my sister even though we are very different when it comes to frumkeit.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 11:54 am

I learned that it was like eating in a kosher restaurant that was owned by non-Jews. For example, in my old community there is a vegan Chinese restaurant that is owned and operated by a Chinese family. The Va'ad made sure that someone checked everything, and turned on all the flames in the morning.

Askenazim accept that is enough, but Sephardim will ask to go into the kitchen and stir one of the pots of soup, or something else to be involved in the cooking. The Chinese workers all understand this (on some level) and it's never a problem.

I think the same amount of oversight would apply to a private home (Obviously you wouldn't need a representative from the Va'ad to come in, but any frum Jew would do to be involved in the cooking.)

simba

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 1:53 pm

Depends who does which part of the cooking. This is a halachic question. Unless their is a Rabba onsite I would call a Rav and ask.

If she just cleans up and peels the veggies then you can assume you are fine without asking a Rav.

If you trust your friend is frum and that she is a yarei shamayim you can assume she asked a rav and knows how to keep her food and kitchen kosher.
If you dont trust her you shouldnt eat there whether or not a gentile is there.

pause

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 4:49 pm

Squishy wrote:

This is correct. A yid must be involved in the cooking. Most often we have come to rely on the easiest part - of turning on the fire, but it's not the only way to "kasher" a non-Jews cooking.

tichellady

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 6:04 pm

amother wrote:

Op here. So I can assume that the gentile employee is too stupid to fry some meat in butter when my friend is out? What's to stop her from treifing up the pots when she knows my friend won't be home before 4:30 pm? What

What's to stop her from burning the house down when your friend won't be home before 4:30? Or from kidnapping your friend's children? Your friend must trust this employee if she is entrusting her home and children with her. Do you have any actual reason to assume that this woman would be intentionally trying to treif up the kitchen? if not, you seem quite paranoid.

Orchid

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 6:30 pm

tichellady wrote:

I agree with OP, although I would word it differently. I've been to a cousin's house where the cousin went on errands and I was helping her and her maid prepare for pesach by washing off vegetables. Once everyone left the house, the maid conspiratorially whispered to me "you can just pretend to wash it; you don't really have to do it properly, since no one knows the difference."

This, their trusted nanny who raised my cousin and produced decades worth of meals for the family.

So anyway, it's not a matter of trust, per se, but a matter of trusting someone when our rules are so crazy (to them). (Unlike tichellady's example above where she likened a maid keeping your children safe to a maid keeping our kashrus laws.) Do you really think she'll tell you that she accidentally mixed up the forks when that entire rule is so crazy to her? Who cares about something as unimportant as a fork?!

What would you do, as a nanny, if they had meticulous rules about, oh, I don't know, which squares on their kitchen floor you shouldn't step on. Believe me, when no one is looking, you step on whichever square you feel like, their rules be darned.
Our rules are crazy to them. I can totally believe (and have seen) people outside the system bend the rules when no one is looking.

tichellady

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 7:04 pm

Orchid wrote:

I hear what are you saying but I think that would apply to Jewish help as well ( unless the person is orthodox and Gd fearing) and I don't see why having someone gentile live in means that they cook in the kitchen unsupervised. I grew up with non Jewish help and they knew that they couldn't cook in our kitchen. Our kitchen was also designed to make it extremely hard to treif up. No need to assume everyone with help doesn't truly keep kosher.

I also think that most people are more respectful about people's religious practices than random illogical rules like stepping on a tile.

ttbtbm

Mon, Sep 11 2017, 8:54 pm

tichellady wrote:

There are Halachos involved when a non Jew is left alone in one's home. My rov told us having a camera in the kitchen was good enough. I'm sure there are various opinions. If your friend is a yarei shamayim you can assume that she has got this taken care of.