What is the real issue about feeling like your derech is the

amother

Papaya

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 7:21 pm

Kiruv is for those who are not frum, period. Not those who are frum in a different way.
You should believe that you are doing what's right for you; otherwise you'd be selling yourself out. But you should not believe that your way is better than anyone else's way. Each person has their own way of serving hashem. Each person has their own potential and their own mission.
Our job is not to be perfect. It's to be a perfect you/me/us.
For example, my husband finds it hard to go to shul. So you might say, that's wrong, out and out.
But then you'd learn that he has colitis, which means he often needs to use the bathroom right away. So on many days he just cannot go to shul. Therefore, the right thing for him to do is NOT to go to shul. (It's assur to Daven when you need the bathroom.) but you would just see a guy who doesn't go to shul and think "he's a bum. But My husband is a tzaddik and goes every day." Uh uh. You're wrong.

mille

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 8:33 pm

It's not necessarily bad, but IMO it's a little self-centered and narrow sighted.

I have no idea if my derech is the "right" one. Personally, I don't think there is one right way to Hashem. Thank God, we have all of these many many derechs all leading to one place - a singular God that created this amazing, interesting, wonderous world we all live in. That's really amazing, and I'm a big fan of monotheism. I try to just focus on my derech and how I live my life and how I serve Hashem - and not worry about the "rightness" in broad terms. I focus on what is right for me, and what furthers my goal of faith and service and whatnot. I do not believe there is a one-size-fits-all derech.

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 9:08 pm

I'm not sure why, but this reminds me of the old Jewish joke in which there is a dispute and the Rabbi says to each party "you're right," and when someone else says " how can they both be right?!," and he says, "and you're right too!" Of course we all believe we're right; that's why we are comfortable following a certain path.

I do think it's important to respect others, and when kiruv is done in a respectful way, it invites people in to experience the beauty of Judaism without forcing a particular derech as the only right way. I think that kind of kiruv has a more lasting impression than enforcing a sense of rigidity about following the "right" path. As others have said, we have no idea whether we're following the right one --we can't control that. What we can control is how we treat our fellow Jews and strive to be our best selves.

Mommyg8

Sun, Sep 17 2017, 10:47 pm

amother wrote:

right one? Why is it bad that I believe that I am living to the standards Hashem wants of me and all Torahdik yidden? And that those who don't hold to these standards are not living the way I believe Hashem wants them to live? Why do we have kiruv then? Why do we have Chabad who encourages people to take on the mitzvos of Hashem? What is really wrong with wanting all frum yidden to keep all parts of the Torah? We should not get to pick and choose mitzvos. That is not how Yiddishkeit works.

I so don't get this question, that I honestly thought this was a joke. Now that others have answered, I'd like to answer this seriously:

Why do you think that people who are not following your derech are not living the way Hashem wants us to live? Why is someone who is not following your derech picking and choosing mitzvos?

From what I understand, we all have the same Torah. We will all build a sukkah, we all fast on Yom Kippur, we will all blow shofar on Rosh Hashana. We all keep Pesach, and we all don't eat chometz, and we all eat matzoh.

Maybe you can explain what you mean that other people who are not following your derech are not following the mitzvos? What IS your derech?

Thanks.

salt

Mon, Sep 18 2017, 1:39 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

That's exactly what I was thinking.
I would like to see some examples of what you mean by a different derech?

zaq

Mon, Sep 18 2017, 2:39 am

The real issue is that the outlook you express is shall we say more than a little arrogant and more than a little divisive without cause. Because when you say (because your teachers have taught you) that your way is THE right way (as opposed to a good way) you, and they, are dissing countless Torah giants who held or currently hold differing opinions. Torah scholars disrespecting each other is what sparked the plague that killed 24,000 of Rabbi Akiva's Talmidim and is the reason why sefirat haomer is a period of mourning instead of a period of mounting joy as it was originally meant to be.

It IS possible to disagree on points of law but remain respectful and even cordial. Hillel and Shammai had too many differences of opinion to count but they were not, as children's books often imply, bitter enemies. They were actually good friends and their machlokot were leshem shamayim without ulterior motives of ego, power trip, or turf-grabbing.

ETA : and sometimes Halacha is lefi Beit Shammai and sometimes lefi Beit Hillel, and maybe that comes to teach us that NOBODY'S way of thinking is right 100% of the time.

Last edited by zaq on Mon, Sep 18 2017, 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total

LovesHashem

Mon, Sep 18 2017, 3:22 am

I hear OP.
NO I would NEVER tell someone Theo derech is wrong. That's called rude. You never tell someone what they are doing is wrong in any aspect. And acting like you are better than someone in any aspect is also wrong. These rules apply in any decisions you see people make. unless its pukuach nefesh you don't say these things.

I don't think it's self centered to believe you are doing the right path. That's like saying you are self centered for thinking you made a better decision about your schooling than your friend. I mean seriously? I don't understand. Are you all that insensitive that someone out there believes your path is not right?

Christians, Muslims, Extremists think my path is wrong. Many MO friends of mine think I'm doing things that are extra and a waste of time. That's also delogitimizing. You do what you think is right. Don't judge others. Don't tell others what to do or give opinions about anyones life choices in any area.

Oh yeah and everyone is bringing up the 12 shwvatim. And oh some people can't go to shul because they have other needs etc. I GET IT.

1. THOSE TWO ideas are completely different. Even if you think your path is correct in your path there's tons of rabanim, mnhagim, there's sefardim, ashkenazim and so many people who do things a bit differently for many reasons. People get a heter or have different needs (such as the husband not going to shul). Some men learn others work, some women cover with a sheital others with a hat and others with a tichel. Don't yell that there in my path there can't be the 12 shevatim.

2. I'm allowed to have an idea of right or wrong in. My head. I mean if I thought another path was right, I'd be that. Sure there are many ways and answers but I can believe they are all in this path. To me- not covering your hair or wearing short sleeves in 100 percent an aveirah. Not going to shul? Wearing jeans? Working? Learning? Even socks I'll give you (since although I beleive it is wrong to not wear socks, I understand there is WAY too much confusion on this topic and anyone who doesn't, I can easily understand why.) Wearing long sheitals (Long meaning down to your breats or even furthur down), all of these things aren't black and white, and you can have different opnions and I still think you are on the right path.

Now, I am specifically no mentioning ANY labels because I am not going to try and generalize and say everyone who identifies with that label is wrong. Plus I just ranted about how I do not tell people my opinions on their choices. The only reason I am explaining this here is because this is a theoretical post, not reffering to anyone, and not towards anyone specific.

It's an opinion, I would never tell anyone all of the in real life, or direct this speech towards a specific poster. (Or at least I try not to....).

amother

Black

Mon, Sep 18 2017, 5:37 am

Of course all Jews (not just "frum" ones) should lead Torah observant lives and keep the mitzvot. Kiruv to bring people closer to Torah is a very good and noble thing. Regarding "standards", that might be a different matter that depends on the community and social norms. I mean, for an example, covering the hair is a mitzvah. Tichel, hat or sheitel with or without shaving are different community standards. I think in these matters it is the right way for everyone to do what their Rav tells them and what their communities do. There is no one single right way and you can't say all the others are wrong. Our Rav for an example is against sheitels but that doesn't make our derech more right than others - there are different ways of fulfilling mitzvot and they are equally valid. And (if I may say so) who can really claim that they know Hashem's own opinion on sheitels, tichels, socks, gebrochts on Pesach and wet wipes on Shabbat? Wink