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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children
Doesn't want to go to shul
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:19 am
My4Jewels wrote:
To me these are religious requirements. Going to shul, davening, dressing tzniut. So if someone is of the belief that pushing teens to do religious things will back fire I am wondering where do they draw the line? Seems like a reasonable question to me. Someone said that each kid has their own relationship with god and by modeling the correct behavior they will see what is correct. So that goes for everything? Just trying to figure out my own insecurities in raising my own family.


I don't know. Kids need some limits but an environment of forcing kids is also bad.

Welcome to the tightrope of parenting :-)
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:20 am
My4Jewels wrote:
To me these are religious requirements. Going to shul, davening, dressing tzniut. So if someone is of the belief that pushing teens to do religious things will back fire I am wondering where do they draw the line? Seems like a reasonable question to me. Someone said that each kid has their own relationship with god and by modeling the correct behavior they will see what is correct. So that goes for everything? Just trying to figure out my own insecurities in raising my own family.



Pushing is never a good thing, but you have to pick and choose your battles. Girls have zero religious obligation to attend shul on every shabbos, so it would be very unwise to insist they go.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:31 am
In most chareidi souls the women's side has old ladies and a couple teens.
Everyone else davens at home (or in the park).
That's nice that you like to daven with the tzibbur. You and your daughter have absolutely no obligation to.
For many ladies it's a social event anyway.
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amother
Red


 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:35 am
OP here. Interestingly, we don't have a problem with tznius. My DD might actually go in the opposite direction with that. As in, some of the delay to shul is her perception that something she is wearing isn't good enough. I think this is her hypercritical teenage side coming out.

I wasn't clear enough about the issue with DD. It's more about the not wanting to get up in time that prevents her from wanting to go to shul. If shul were held in the afternoon, I don't think there would nearly be an issue. Occasionally, she just isn't in the mood for rote davening and I get it. I don't want her to be there either under those circumstances. Rote davening occurs at school on a daily basis. She is surrounded by girls who take davening less than serious and she has commented she feels this is disrespectful and she can't concentrate. She is a teenager and she can be fickle.

When she comes to shul and she davens with me, it is nice. She spends 20 minutes on Shemoneh esrei and the repetition. I give her positive reinforcement. We are side by side and there is a level of contentment I can see in her eyes. Perhaps this is because she knows I'm happy with her but I think on some level she is happy with herself. She will often stay for longer after to watch her brother daven at the bimah with the boys or listen to the chazan. Then she goes on her way and feels good about herself that she made an effort. At least, that is my perception.

She can not be left to get up on her own and come to shul because the walk is quite a distance and I would not let her walk alone.

Our rav has expectations that children (of bar/bat mitzvah age) are expected to daven. But nobody really listens to this.

I will make the decision to go easier on her. And make it more enticing and rewarding to get up on time for shul. I don't want to fight with her.

Because I wasn't raised frum, I just don't see how adults make it from the transition from "no expectations as a child" to "okay, now I'm married with a family raising my own frum children". I just don't see it.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:44 am
amother wrote:
OP here. Interestingly, we don't have a problem with tznius. My DD might actually go in the opposite direction with that. As in, some of the delay to shul is her perception that something she is wearing isn't good enough. I think this is her hypercritical teenage side coming out.

I wasn't clear enough about the issue with DD. It's more about the not wanting to get up in time that prevents her from wanting to go to shul. If shul were held in the afternoon, I don't think there would nearly be an issue. Occasionally, she just isn't in the mood for rote davening and I get it. I don't want her to be there either under those circumstances. Rote davening occurs at school on a daily basis. She is surrounded by girls who take davening less than serious and she has commented she feels this is disrespectful and she can't concentrate. She is a teenager and she can be fickle.

When she comes to shul and she davens with me, it is nice. She spends 20 minutes on Shemoneh esrei and the repetition. I give her positive reinforcement. We are side by side and there is a level of contentment I can see in her eyes. Perhaps this is because she knows I'm happy with her but I think on some level she is happy with herself. She will often stay for longer after to watch her brother daven at the bimah with the boys or listen to the chazan. Then she goes on her way and feels good about herself that she made an effort. At least, that is my perception.

She can not be left to get up on her own and come to shul because the walk is quite a distance and I would not let her walk alone.

Our rav has expectations that children (of bar/bat mitzvah age) are expected to daven. But nobody really listens to this.

I will make the decision to go easier on her. And make it more enticing and rewarding to get up on time for shul. I don't want to fight with her.

Because I wasn't raised frum, I just don't see how adults make it from the transition from "no expectations as a child" to "okay, now I'm married with a family raising my own frum children". I just don't see it.


It's not that there are no expectations as a child, there are definitely expectations. But what the frum world has learned in the past 10 - 20 years is that forcing your expectations on a child who isn't interested or willing will usually backfire. So yes, I expect my dds to daven, but I don't force the dd who has an issue with it, it's between her and Hashem and hopefully one day she will be more interested. When one of my dds had an issue with tznius, I didn't push her, I let her dress the way she wanted and B"H we don't have an issue anymore. but my children definitely know what they are supposed to do. Pushing or forcing a teenager will almost always backfire.

Especially for girls who have zero chiyuv to daven with a minyan, there is no pushing. If it was a teenage boy I would encourage and do my best to wake him if he seems interested, but if you keep pushing you can turn them off entirely.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 11:47 am
Op sounds like you are part of an mo or dl community where women and girls do commonly go to shul, I get you. But 13 year olds love weekend sleep. Maybe see if she'll go once or twice a month as a compromise?
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 12:53 pm
amother wrote:
DD more often than not, gives us a hard time about going to shul


Has it occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, you are giving HER a hard time?

I like to ask myself this question whenever I begin to have a thought about my child giving poor me a hard time. Asking myself this question (multiple times a day) has helped me get perspective.

Forgive me if I'm giving you a hard time by posting this....
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 1:09 pm
I know Shacharis is probably the ideal, but could you encourage her to attend mincha instead if her trouble is getting up? There are opinions that say women need to say one of the two, and Shabbos mincha still has Torah reading.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 1:23 pm
Oh, so it's not a davening thing, it's a getting up before you leave thing. She wants to get there for mussaf, and you like to be there for korbanos. (Or whatever)

You need to figure out, with her, how she could get up, daven shacharis, then come to Shul.
Don't make it about davening. It's about sleeping in.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 1:33 pm
amother wrote:
the walk is quite a distance and I would not let her walk alone.

That seems to require more explanation.
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amother
Red


 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 2:11 pm
imasoftov wrote:
That seems to require more explanation.


Why does this require more explanation?
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2017, 2:25 pm
The minimum requirement (according to most lenient) for women is one tefilla a day. So what can that one tefilla be? According to most lenient, modeh ani is good enough. More strict opinions say one shemona esrei. There is absolutely no obligation for women/girls to daven in shul with the kehila.
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Shuly




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 18 2017, 6:32 am
Ask her what time she would like you to wake her up on shabbos and go to shul together late.
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amother
Red


 

Post Mon, Sep 18 2017, 9:34 am
What other time can a teenager learn to connect to Hashem then on the quiet sanctity of Shabbos when there are no other distractions, and inspired by the spirit of the community? I asked if she would like to go for Friday night or mincha. I got a "No way! Nobody does that!" answer. So we went shopping yesterday so that she had more choice in Shabbos clothes. We will see if better planning will allow her an easier time to get up on Shabbos.

https://www.nishmat.net/torah/view.asp?id=47
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Mon, Sep 18 2017, 9:59 am
I don't understand this thread at all. "Religious requirement"? There isn't any basis for that. I hardly ever went to shul as a girl (RW yeshivish background). My sisters went, but I preferred to sleep in. To each their own. There's zero obligation.
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 18 2017, 10:00 am
Frankly, I also hated getting up early on Shabbos and being forced to go to Shul. I was (and still am not) a morning person, but had to do it every day for school, so I wanted to at least sleep late on Shabbos.
Seems like your Dd feels the same way.
Also, why would she want to go to Shul & have to daven, when the other girls are not?
Not everyone is inspired by davening in Shul. In fact, as so many women pointed out, being forced to go did the opposite of inspiring them.
Perhaps a group of girls can get together on late Shabbos morning or afternoon to daven, talk about the parsha etc. You can rotate whose house the gathering is in, and have it be a fun inspirational time.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Mon, Sep 18 2017, 10:13 am
For a 13 year old girl, going to shul is as much social as it is spiritual. I am not surprised she would not want to go Friday night or for Mincha - no girl wants to be different than her friends. Making sure she has nice clothing, which she feels comfortable in, is really important, so good move OP taking her shopping. If it's hard for her to wake up (which is completely NORMAL at this age!), maybe talk to her about going to shul early/on time as a special thing for Shabbos Mevarchim. That way she only has to make the extra effort once a month and the other weeks can relax and there will be no friction between you. As she matures, she may enjoy being in shul more and decide to get up early on other weeks on her own. Lowering the expectations to a more realistic level should make it easier for both of you.
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