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How do I tell my kids about relatives baby
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 12:37 pm
Not a mamzer. A mamzer is not a baby born out of wedlock; it's a baby born to a forbidden relationship (married woman with another man for example)
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 12:38 pm
amother wrote:
Really? The baby will be a mamzer, it's going to have a hard life.


Firstly a mamzer is not a [gentile]. Secondly, as long as she was not married to someone else at the time the baby is not a mamzer.
Maybe it wasnt conceived B'Tahara but thats about it. Assuming mommy is jewish and single then baby is good to go!
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 12:47 pm
The most common situation in our times that results in mamzeirus is, as others have said, a woman who was previously married and never received a get.

But even that's not necessarily as common as people might think.

* The previous marriage had to have been to a Jew.

* The previous marriage had to have been halachically valid.

Therefore, Aunt Geraldine's starter marriage to her non-Jewish college boyfriend, solemnized at the county courthouse, would likely not create an issue of mamzeirus. Obviously, it's an area of halacha that requires expert rabbinic review of each situation, but true mamzeirus is fortunately not too common.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 12:59 pm
amother wrote:
Really? The baby will be a mamzer, it's going to have a hard life.


A baby whose parents jumped the gun, so to speak, is not a mamzer.

Think about what the OP said. They think that Uncle ... whatever Fox named him, I'll call him Uncle Flip ... they think Uncle Flip is frum. And they know Uncle Flip and Aunt Geraldine got married. Its pretty likely Geraldine is Jewish, and entitled to marry Flip. Because otherwise OP would be asking a whole mess of other questions about telling her kids that they have a brand new gentile cousin.

But a mamzer is not a child who was born less than 9 months after the wedding. Or a child whose parents weren't married at all. Or whose mother didn't go to the mikvah. A mamzer is the child of incest. Or of parents who could not marry because mom was already married to someone else. And rabbis try very very hard to find that didn't happen.

Its a terrible thing to accuse someone of being a mamzer. Don't do it.

In any case, I'm with Fox here. Tell the kids they have a new cousin. Be excited. And if they start counting the months, matter of factly tell them that Uncle Flip and Aunt Geraldine aren't frum, and sometimes people who aren't frum have babies before marriage. Its against halacha, and you don't agree with it. But you still love them, and love their new baby, very much.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 1:04 pm
Fox, you are right with your first point, but unfortunately not with your second one. Otherwise it would never be an issue with Soviet Jews, but sadly it is.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 1:15 pm
sequoia wrote:
Fox, you are right with your first point, but unfortunately not with your second one. Otherwise it would never be an issue with Soviet Jews, but sadly it is.

You're no doubt right; I'm just going from memory. At any rate, it's a complicated issue that requires a dayan with extensive experience in the topic, and I've heard of a number of cases where someone feared he/she was a mamzer but it turned out not to be the case. All hearsay, however. Hopefully Aunt Geraldine was truly single when she canoodled with Uncle Max.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 1:24 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Uncle ... whatever Fox named him, I'll call him Uncle Flip ...

Uncle Max! Uncle Max!

Lol, now we're all going to be confused.

If Aunt Geraldine was married to Uncle Flip before she married Uncle Max, we'd better hope that she received a get. If Uncle Flip was married to Uncle Max, then I think the kid is safe. But what if Aunt Geraldine is really just the surrogate for Uncle Flip and Uncle Max, but she married Uncle Max to get on his health insurance? Or what if Uncle Flip and Aunt Geraldine are the biological parents, but neither are citizens, and Uncle Max offered to marry Aunt Geraldine in order to ensure the citizenship status of the baby . . . ?

See, OP! By the time we finish chewing over this topic, you'll be glad all you have to explain is a suprise baby! Either that, or the baby will be grown and can argue her own case on Imamother! LOL
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 1:31 pm
Fox wrote:
Uncle Max! Uncle Max!

Lol, now we're all going to be confused.

If Aunt Geraldine was married to Uncle Flip before she married Uncle Max, we'd better hope that she received a get. If Uncle Flip was married to Uncle Max, then I think the kid is safe. But what if Aunt Geraldine is really just the surrogate for Uncle Flip and Uncle Max, but she married Uncle Max to get on his health insurance? Or what if Uncle Flip and Aunt Geraldine are the biological parents, but neither are citizens, and Uncle Max offered to marry Aunt Geraldine in order to ensure the citizenship status of the baby . . . ?

See, OP! By the time we finish chewing over this topic, you'll be glad all you have to explain is a suprise baby! Either that, or the baby will be grown and can argue her own case on Imamother! LOL


Well, I could really confuse them by telling them that Uncle Flip IS Geraldine. Am I the only one who remembers Flip Wilson?
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 1:56 pm
simba wrote:
Like non-married Zex? What do you mean? I honestly don't understand your statement. Telling the kids she may have gotten raped?
Tell the kids they went swimming the same body of water, at different times obviously! Tznius! and somehow something came out of him then went into her and now they have a baby?
Virgin Mary style?

I am not mocking, I just don't understand what point you are getting at?


I assume she means unmarried women having kids by sperm donation.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 2:12 pm
Thought of you when I learned last night that my non-frum but fairly traditional, shul-going BIL eloped with a girl 18 years his junior. She was raised catholic but apparently wants to become Jewish. They were married by a magistrate. We've never met her.

My kids aren't processing this and honestly, neither am I.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 2:18 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Well, I could really confuse them by telling them that Uncle Flip IS Geraldine. Am I the only one who remembers Flip Wilson?

I must bow to your greatness! I'd completely forgotten about Flip Wilson and Geraldine!

And now I'm wasting my time watching old Flip Wilson routines! The devil made me do it!



Next thing you know, you'll be insisting that Samantha and Serena were the same person!
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 7:10 pm
amother wrote:
Really? The baby will be a mamzer, it's going to have a hard life.


This is an ignorant comment. A mamzer is a baby born to a woman who had relations with a man she cannot be married to. A baby born from incest or from an already-married woman would be a mamzer. In this situation, a Jewish baby was born to two parents who lacked a Ketubah. A lack of a Ketubah does not render a baby born from such a union a mamzer.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 7:46 pm
it's a baby - mazel tov !!!
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behappy2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 7:55 pm
I would be honest. How could you not share. I don't see a reason to make it a time to teach them not to have zex before marriage though. They know this from growing up with you. It opens up a whole can of worms.

"So exciting so and so had a baby"

"Yes. They made a baby before they got married. "

"Mommy and totty didn't do that but non jews and ppl that are not frum do that sometimes. "
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 19 2017, 8:15 pm
There are two options based on what your kids already know/how curious they are.

1. If they don't know how a baby is made, and you don't want to tell them, just be very casual about it. Congrats a new baby in the family! Yes, I guess it is early. Sometimes that happens, babies come unexpectedly. Let's bake them a cake.

Kids are not going to generally question this unless they know something is up. Because to them it's like any other explanation for something not very interesting. Sometimes lightening comes with rain and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes hurricanes come upon land and sometimes they turn. Sometimes babies come after 9 months and sometimes they come early. Whatever. Sometimes apples turn brown and other times they don't. Whatever.

2. If your kids know the scoop, you're going to have to tell them gently and also relatively casually. No big deal. They got together and made a baby ahead of schedule. Jews who are observant try not to do that, but we are still happy that there's a new baby. Let's bake a cake.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Wed, Sep 20 2017, 12:59 pm
I have attended frum weddings where the kallah may have been pregnant. The couple married as Noachides and after conversion had their Jewish wedding. I can't imagine another kosher circumstance where a child could be born a month after a wedding, but I am not willing to say there can't be one. I agree with everyone who said not to draw attention to it.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Tue, Sep 26 2017, 4:36 pm
op here- so I told my older son first and when I tried to give him an explanation he goes "Ma , I know, I know" The fell in "Love" ( he put his hands up in air quotes ) before they were married...oy. Then I told my slightly younger kids who are not so swift,,they said " yeah they got married before the actually wedding"..I'm done Smile Thanks for all the replies..she is so cute K"H no matter what!
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