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5 year-old does not help.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 12:53 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
OP, I want to throw my support to you because I think you are being unfairly attacked. It is absolutely OK to have expectations of your children. It is OK to expect them to pitch in and clean up. It's ridiculous to just say that your 5 year old should never clean up. 100 years ago, kids were farming at 5, picking up some blocks shouldn't be a big deal unless your child has major challenges.

Now that being said, I also believe that kids do well when they can and something is stopping him. Maybe he needs more empathy before he starts cleaning up? Saying things like It is really hard to stop something fun to do something boring like cleaning up may help him.

I know you've said you tried finding out exactly what he doesn't like about cleaning up, but you might have to ask the question in different ways. Or does he want you to help him so that he's spending more time with you? My kids are much more likely to do chores if I'm doing them alongside because they can also talk to me as I'm doing things.

Your expectations are fine, you just need to figure out the implementation.


THANK YOU. This is more like it. Yes, he does seem to be more "needy" emotionally than my other children, but I've been struggling with how to properly give him what he needs when he seems to be "unfair" to his siblings--who also need my love an attention. Its not just when cleaning up, but in almost every aspect of daily life. For example, when I'm trying to do homework with his older brother--who also needs my quality time and attention. He will constantly nudge us so that we can't do the homework. I will attempt to redirect him to do something "in the meantime" so that after I'm done with homework--in 5-10 minutes, I will be able to give him the attention that he wants--but no, everything he wants must be NOW. When it's time for bed, I will tell him go get pajamas from the 2nd floor. He insists that I MUST come with him, yes I've tried making a contingency of "Now I'm going upstairs, if you want my help, then I am going now. Come now or no one will be available later." I will say "Ok you guys clean up and I will prepare supper"--but he insists that I help, so that I can't prepare supper, and then he complains that he's TOO HUNGRY. At bedtime he insists that either me or my husband sit with him until he falls asleep, but we also have another child in another room who ALSO needs us--its like he's jealous of the attention we give the others. I read a whole book to him and his brother in the same room--2 boys, 2 books, and then when I go to do bedtime with his sister, she gets a quickie board book, and then I'm singing a song that comprises the text of another book, then he claims its "not fair that she gets 2 books." I tell him, let me just finish putting her to bed, and then I can come back, but he keeps nudging in a way that's not letting her fall asleep, and frustrating me in the process. Then when I do come back, he's talking or making noises. I tell him that he needs to be trying to fall asleep or I will leave--so he says "you can leave!" mind you that since summer vacation started they've been going to sleep later and waking up later so by the time I get them to bed its almost 10pm. I'm exhausted. (During the school year they were up by 6:30am and going to sleep 8:30pm, during the summer they've been sleeping until 7:30-8:00 am, and going to sleep at 9:30pm)

Its like anything that was motivating for him, he will say its not so that he can just get his way. This is why its so frustrating with him. Anything that I WANT to give him, he will tell me that he "doesn't like it anymore." Money is tight for us, so I can't just give him whatever, whenever. Besides I think he's old enough to be able to understand the concept of "working towards the big prizes that he wants (lego sets etc.) and non-immediate gratification. But then when it comes to actually doing the task/chore to earn "credit" towards that prize he gives up and doesn't follow through or he demands I give him the prize and THEN he'll do it, but he's lost his reliability for that statement.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:06 pm
OP, do you want to PM me? If so, feel free.

I can really empathize with how hard it is to give everyone the time and attention they want. I had my 4th when my oldest was 5, so I know how tough it is.

Stop trying to reward him. I would actually stop trying to reward everyone in the family. I don't find it to be a good idea long term.

I've stopped answering to "It's not fair." I've had my kids start rephrasing as "I would also like to have another story" or something like that.

Is there another adult in the house at bedtime? Can you sit with your two boys while your husband puts your daughter to bed? Or can you read all the bedtime stories together and then send them each to their bed? Can you put your daughter to bed an hour before so the bedtimes are clearly differentiated?

I'm a big fan of reducing conflict where you can. It's not always possible.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:07 pm
Zehava wrote:
Guilt tripping your child by constantly telling him how much you do
Expecting him to do his fair share in running the house
Blaming him for what is going wrong in the relationship
Keeping score of how much you give him "unearned"
Expecting him to "earn his keep"
That is all emotional abuse


Please. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes You've been reading different post than I have.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:13 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
Please. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes You've been reading different post than I have.

Maybe you haven't read through all of ops posts. She does all of the above. As per her own admission.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:18 pm
Zehava wrote:
Maybe you haven't read through all of ops posts. She does all of the above. As per her own admission.


I read through every single one. OP does not come across as abusive at all. She comes across as a parent who is struggling and maybe doesn't always says the right thing. You know, like all human beings.

Telling your kids that you do a lot for them and they need to help as well is not abusive. Expecting your child to pitch in with very basic, age appropriate chores is not abusive. OP didn't blame him for what's wrong. She's not keeping score. She trying to figure out how to work through this problem.

Labeling her as abusive is completely unhelpful, especially from a few posts on the internet.
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squirrel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:22 pm
Your expectations are way too high! My 9 yr old dd hardly does what he has to do. At the rate your going he will resent this and grow up to be one of those men who will refuse to help around the house.
Try and make it more of an activity than a chore even if it means involving you and your time, in the long run its worthwhile. Get down on the floor with him and make it exciting.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:27 pm
amother wrote:
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/parenting/parenting-challenges/motivating-kids-to-clean-up/age-appropriate-chores
Ages 4 and 5

Note: This age can be trained to use a family chore chart.

Personal chores

Get dressed with minimal parental help
Make their bed with minimal parental help
Bring their things from the car to the house
PIck up their toys
Wash hands


I've looked at several responsibilities-by-age and almost ALL of them say that by 5 years-old a child should be able to put toys away. He's NOT a baby anymore, but none of the behavior modification methods that are typical for encouraging responsibility seem to be working with him.


You're right - your child should be able to do these things. But not every child is behaviorally and developmentally perfect (in fact, lots of children aren't). Your child may be lacking in maturity, he can have executive functioning deficiencies, etc....The question is, what do we do with a child who isn't doing the things that he/she should be doing?

I have three children B"AH, and they are three totally different personalities. You know, so that when I thought I learned something from the first, I had to relearn it with my second. And when my youngest - my little free-spirit - came along, oh boy! Was I in for a round of re-learning everything I thought I knew.

In the process of trying my best to be a mother to non-textbook kids, I've taken a few parenting courses. I've learned that some kids don't follow the rules. Hashem made them that way - they are hard-wired differently. They will annoy you and their siblings, they are impulsive, they want lots of hand-holding, and they are not living their lives with the express goal to make things easier or happier for you. But Hashem put them into your family, He didn't make a mistake. Maybe he wants you to stretch yourself and develop flexibility.

You can persist in trying to raise your son "the way he's supposed to be raised" but I'll venture to say it's not likely to give you alot of menuchas hanefesh. He's already showing you at five that he has his own way, and he needs you to parent him differently.

It might not be easy on his siblings, but it's okay to tell them what Shlomo HeMelech told us in Mishlei - Chanoch L'naar Al Pi Darko. Tell them that you raise each of them according to their abilities and needs, because you love them.

I've been told by people experienced in Chinuch that when a child is resisting and getting into power struggles, the thing to do is just stop, for a period of time. Take a few days where you don't make any requests of him at all. Don't ask him to pitch in, let him take his space. During this time, give him lots of unconditional love, little presents, time alone with you, stories, etc...Patch up the bond between you so that "mean Mommy" is the farthest thought from his mind. Fill him up with "Mommy loves me unconditionally".

After that, start over, but start small. You sitting on the floor helping him, little steps, expectations he can handle. Build up from there.

Wish you much Hatzlacha.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:32 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
OP, do you want to PM me? If so, feel free.

I can really empathize with how hard it is to give everyone the time and attention they want. I had my 4th when my oldest was 5, so I know how tough it is.

Stop trying to reward him. I would actually stop trying to reward everyone in the family. I don't find it to be a good idea long term.

I've stopped answering to "It's not fair." I've had my kids start rephrasing as "I would also like to have another story" or something like that.

Is there another adult in the house at bedtime? Can you sit with your two boys while your husband puts your daughter to bed? Or can you read all the bedtime stories together and then send them each to their bed? Can you put your daughter to bed an hour before so the bedtimes are clearly differentiated?

I'm a big fan of reducing conflict where you can. It's not always possible.


Its not like my MO is to be "rewarding" but trying to "inform him" of the natural consequence of listening and cooperating, because otherwise he doesn't do ANYTHING. Let me rephrase something that seems to not have been communicated well. I'm not trying to "guilt trip" him, is more like while he's "sulking" that I'm not helping him, I'm merely trying to explain that everyone has jobs--just like in school, we may not all be doing the exact same jobs, but everyone's help is important for the family to run properly. I'm trying to convey in an age-appropriate chinuch manner that its in his own interest that he helps, because then he can find things, he has room to play, I won't be stepping on/breaking his toys, his games/puzzles are more fun to play with when we put the pieces back in the box. We can do more fun things when everyone pitches in. If he can show me that he takes care of his things than I'm more likely to consider a more expensive/elaborate toy when he asks for it. If he's not putting his games away, I'm not interested in throwing money in the garbage. He doesn't have to "earn his keep" but I don't appreciate being "dumped on" without any contribution from him. He wants video/tablet time so I just ask him for 5 minutes of help/responsibility (put shoes away, clothing in hamper, toys back in their spots) before he "disappears"--and he puts up a whole fight. I'm not getting why this is an inappropriate request?

As for bedtime, sometimes yes my husband and I split up, though they often fight over who gets which parent and we switch off, and though its not consistent, sometimes one of us is more conducive to bedtime with one set or another. Though, its not a given that we're both available between maariv, shopping, errands, or just other things that take one of us away from the house in the evening. As for putting my daughter to sleep earlier--that's another story completely believe me we've tried she has her own attachment issues at the moment.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:33 pm
amother wrote:

Its like anything that was motivating for him, he will say its not so that he can just get his way. This is why its so frustrating with him. Anything that I WANT to give him, he will tell me that he "doesn't like it anymore." Money is tight for us, so I can't just give him whatever, whenever. Besides I think he's old enough to be able to understand the concept of "working towards the big prizes that he wants (lego sets etc.) and non-immediate gratification. But then when it comes to actually doing the task/chore to earn "credit" towards that prize he gives up and doesn't follow through or he demands I give him the prize and THEN he'll do it, but he's lost his reliability for that statement.


He actually sounds like he's lacking the maturity to work towards big prizes. You can see this because having him work toward a big prize IS NOT WORKING OUT. I would save those for birthday/chanukah/afikomen presents, which he gets unconditionally. For prizes that he is earning (like for a chart) I'd do something smaller that he can earn very quickly, since he seems to have difficulty coping with delayed gratification, indicating that now is NOT the time to work on that yet. There are too many other things to work on for now.

I have a child that is similar to him, and she gets prizes from the dollar store, little things like that, that she can earn fairly quickly. It's more in line with where she's holding.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:47 pm
Chayalle wrote:
He actually sounds like he's lacking the maturity to work towards big prizes. You can see this because having him work toward a big prize IS NOT WORKING OUT. I would save those for birthday/chanukah/afikomen presents, which he gets unconditionally. For prizes that he is earning (like for a chart) I'd do something smaller that he can earn very quickly, since he seems to have difficulty coping with delayed gratification, indicating that now is NOT the time to work on that yet. There are too many other things to work on for now.

I have a child that is similar to him, and she gets prizes from the dollar store, little things like that, that she can earn fairly quickly. It's more in line with where she's holding.


For sure, I've tried that as well, doesn't seem to improve his compliance.

Typical scenario: I'll tell all 3 kids erev shabbos, whoever helps put the toys away, will get a treat l'kovod shabbos. Eldest helps a lot, he gets the treat. Youngest does her share, she gets the treat. Middle is still busy playing, being reminded several times that if he doesn't help, no treat. Job is basically done most of the time I've stalled enough that the eldest is complaining that he wants his treat already, Middle still didn't do anything so he doesn't get the treat. Then he complains, throws a tantrum that its not fair. I tell him the job is done, he lost his chance. So then he either I will give him another task, but he says its not fair that he has to "do more than they did" or sometimes he dumps the toys back on the floor and demand that I help him clean up.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:47 pm
You say your daughter has attachment issues, but honestly it sounds like this child may as well. He sounds very, very emotionally needy. And he is begging for undivided attention (which he perceives as love) any way he can. The more you write, the more it seems clear that this is about your relationship with him, not necessarily his abilities.

What about working on your relationship for the next couple of months, without any demands whatsoever? Pretend he is an infant. If he wants to be fed, feed him. If he wants to be dressed, dress him. If he wants you to play with him, clean up with him, sit on his bed, just do it. Don't expect any more from him than you would from an infant. Cuddle him, hold him, hug him, kiss him.

I would guess that his emotional state will change tremendously.

Eta and stop making all these treats conditional! Decide if you want to give the treat/ take them for ice cream/ read them the book. Then do it, without making them earn it.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:55 pm
amother wrote:
For sure, I've tried that as well, doesn't seem to improve his compliance.

Typical scenario: I'll tell all 3 kids erev shabbos, whoever helps put the toys away, will get a treat l'kovod shabbos. Eldest helps a lot, he gets the treat. Youngest does her share, she gets the treat. Middle is still busy playing, being reminded several times that if he doesn't help, no treat. Job is basically done most of the time I've stalled enough that the eldest is complaining that he wants his treat already, Middle still didn't do anything so he doesn't get the treat. Then he complains, throws a tantrum that its not fair. I tell him the job is done, he lost his chance. So then he either I will give him another task, but he says its not fair that he has to "do more than they did" or sometimes he dumps the toys back on the floor and demand that I help him clean up.


I give my kids a small treat when I light the candles. I've been doing this for years.

But the thing is with this, it's a collective cleaning up, and he's not good at participating.

Can you try taking him aside and telling him you want to do a contest with him. Choose something easy that he's likely to succeed at (so he tastes success). Like maybe, he puts his own socks and shoes on every morning. He gets a check. Five times or ten times (you decide which he's likely to do) and he goes to choose a prize from the dollar store.

you want to set him up for success. That's the goal here. Not the actual chore.

If you are giving a treat to everyone who is helping to clean up, try to get him to do a few pieces so he gets the treat. Avoid having a treat that everyone gets but him. It's counterproductive. Right now he can't handle that.
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amother
Green


 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 1:57 pm
amother wrote:
For sure, I've tried that as well, doesn't seem to improve his compliance.

Typical scenario: I'll tell all 3 kids erev shabbos, whoever helps put the toys away, will get a treat l'kovod shabbos. Eldest helps a lot, he gets the treat. Youngest does her share, she gets the treat. Middle is still busy playing, being reminded several times that if he doesn't help, no treat. Job is basically done most of the time I've stalled enough that the eldest is complaining that he wants his treat already, Middle still didn't do anything so he doesn't get the treat. Then he complains, throws a tantrum that its not fair. I tell him the job is done, he lost his chance. So then he either I will give him another task, but he says its not fair that he has to "do more than they did" or sometimes he dumps the toys back on the floor and demand that I help him clean up.


If you are doing the cleanup for treats thing that means you are wanting him to clean up for your benefit, not for his chinuch. KIDS FEEL THE DIFFERENCE.
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sirel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 3:50 pm
OP, I don't think your expectations are unreasonable.
I think your realtionship with your son is broken and needs to be repaired. That comes first , before teaching him personal responsibility and work ethic and fairness.

Please, take a break from asking him to do things. spend some one-on-one time with, somewhere where he doesn't have to compete with his siblings for attention.
Play a game with him, baby him. He;s still very very young though he has 2 younger siblings.

when he feels loved and taken care of and connected to you, he will want to please you.
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JenniferK




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 4:34 pm
What the above posters say, I can't stress enough the importance of connecting to your child emotionally. We all think we do it until otherwise pointed out. Like in my case.

I was you a few months ago, I gave DD gifts, hugs & kisses. Her therapist pointed out that she is lacking emotional connection. I stared at her in disbelief. How could she say it to me? I am the best mother, especially compared to my neighbors kids.

Then she introduced DH & I to filial therapy. Google it.

I'm still learning how to apply it at home but DH & I started taking chances. Every night one of us will spend anywhere from 15-30 minutes with DD. No phones, no tasks, no distractions. Her therapist recommended twice a week, but after seeing the results we do it more often.

In the beginning when I sat on her bed and read her a book she would climb all over me.I used to get so frustrated. "I'm reading you a story, sit and listen!" But then her therapist pointed out that this is her reaction to us connecting emotionally. She doesn't know how to express her excitement.

The more we implemented this, the more she calmed down and participated in whatever activity we were doing.

And like I posted before, today she wanted to make beds without me even thinking this is something in her capacity.

ETA she is around the same age as your DS
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Tue, Jul 25 2017, 5:44 pm
JenniferK wrote:
What the above posters say, I can't stress enough the importance of connecting to your child emotionally. We all think we do it until otherwise pointed out. Like in my case.

I was you a few months ago, I gave DD gifts, hugs & kisses. Her therapist pointed out that she is lacking emotional connection. I stared at her in disbelief. How could she say it to me? I am the best mother, especially compared to my neighbors kids.

Then she introduced DH & I to filial therapy. Google it.

I'm still learning how to apply it at home but DH & I started taking chances. Every night one of us will spend anywhere from 15-30 minutes with DD. No phones, no tasks, no distractions. Her therapist recommended twice a week, but after seeing the results we do it more often.

In the beginning when I sat on her bed and read her a book she would climb all over me.I used to get so frustrated. "I'm reading you a story, sit and listen!" But then her therapist pointed out that this is her reaction to us connecting emotionally. She doesn't know how to express her excitement.

The more we implemented this, the more she calmed down and participated in whatever activity we were doing.

And like I posted before, today she wanted to make beds without me even thinking this is something in her capacity.

ETA she is around the same age as your DS


Sounds interesting did you get trained in this type of therapy from the therapist or just from videos online. What you're saying does resonate a bit.

Ftr, for the poster who brought this up, when I mentioned my other child's attachment issues--its because she's 2 and she doesn't want to sleep in the room by herself, but doesn't make sense to move her in with her brothers. She's been having a hard time settling down at night and takes a LONG time to fall asleep no matter what the routine, or time we start putting her down.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 27 2017, 6:44 pm
amother wrote:
Sounds interesting did you get trained in this type of therapy from the therapist or just from videos online. What you're saying does resonate a bit.

Ftr, for the poster who brought this up, when I mentioned my other child's attachment issues--its because she's 2 and she doesn't want to sleep in the room by herself, but doesn't make sense to move her in with her brothers. She's been having a hard time settling down at night and takes a LONG time to fall asleep no matter what the routine, or time we start putting her down.


OT but why not? You can do this temporarily, until she's a little bit older and ready to be without them.

I shared a room with my older brother (he's two years older than me) for a few years. I don't remember exactly how long. For sure till I was 6 or 7 years old....
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Sun, Oct 01 2017, 4:29 pm
Zehava wrote:
Maybe you haven't read through all of ops posts. She does all of the above. As per her own admission.


When I read your comment it sounds to my ears like a prosecutor is speaking. Oh how I long for a world where we support each other with compassion. Reminds me of the mashal of the person wearing a coat and the wind blew and the person pulled the coat tighter. The sun came out, and the person took the coat off.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 02 2017, 6:15 am
5 year old understand putting the lego here, the books there, "no leaving stuff on the floor", what is trash belongs in the trash. Ask any mora.

I would, in this order: encourage, bribe, scold, punish.
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Mon, Oct 02 2017, 7:15 am
Let the child be a child.
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