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How many mitzvot does 1 word of Torah learning equal?
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 1:13 pm
As for Acher aka Elisha ben Avuya, his later apostasy did not cancel out his earlier Torah. Before his apostasy he was called by name and his opinions were recorded in the Talmud. Afterwards he was called “acher” to dissociate the apostate from the Torah scholar and leave the Torah contributions unsullied. A rather brilliant way to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We have no way of knowing his or anyone else’s ultimate fate, whether his learning outweighed his apostasy or vice versa. As more than one person has posted, we are not G-d’s bookkeepers. We can speculate all we like but at the end of the day we must believe that He knows what’s what and his Scales of Justice never need recalibration.

TBH I think EbA got something of a bum rap. He was one of four of the greatest Torah minds of the day who ascended to the “Pardes” . Whatever it was that they saw there was too much for even such mental giants as these to handle. One died, one went insane, EbA became an apostate and only Rabbi Akiva came back unscathed. (I’ve often wondered if RA was so strong precisely because he didn’t start life as a yeshiva bocher. Maybe his hardscrabble beginnings gave him a certain practicality and stability that the others lacked.)

In any case, it’s not as if EbA was from the beginning hanging out wit da boyz fum da hood in bars and brothels after night seder. He went through an exceptionally traumatic experience that killed one of his buddies and destroyed the mind of another. Maybe each of them had a different hidden weakness that determined his response. Maybe EbA had a seed of heresy in his makeup that would never have germinated had he not gone through this experience. And maybe that’s why the man “before” gets credit for the good he did before his faith was destroyed.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:46 pm
amother wrote:
my husband has adhd or a learning disability and never passed a written test. He basicly keeps a shiur with a talmid chochom whom he gives a weekly stipend.
I, on the other hand love learning. My father calls me his talmid chochom. I read seforim on
torah, nach, mussar, halacha etc. I learned from all this that a person is given the personality and traits to fulfill his destiny. It is not my business if my husband NEVER opens a sefer. He is a yiras shamayim and does mitzvos like paying his workers on time and supporting divorcees and people who are in debt. He is kind to every person he meets. He is very careful to live his life according to halacha. I think it is silly when women are obsessed with their husbands torah learning when they dont follow the the train of thought of mesillas yesharim, chovos halvovas shla hakadosh etc.


I've told my daughters to look for someone who is a mensch, responsible, and has some connection to Yiddishkeit that animates him. Because I knew that they weren't necessarily looking for learners, but I felt that these three criteria are crucial; the rest is personal.
Sounds like you hit the jackpot.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:48 pm
PurpleandGold wrote:
With great respect for all the points you made, please allow me to explain why I continue to disagree. The statement I was refuting was that "Torah learning means nothing without...". I would also like to refute that " if a person is not a baal middos his learning isnt worth much.". Torah learning, on a purely spiritual level, has intrinsic value, regardless of the character of the person learning it.

If a person was a cruel person, like the Melech Menashe from the tekufas haniviim, or an apikores, like Elisha Ben Abuye from the tekufas hatanaim, his Torah learning still has value and purpose, and he will be rewarded, regardless if his character is influenced by his learning. As evidenced in the stories of Menashe's miraculous salvation from being burned alive and Acher's ability to learn with the great Tanaim of his generation, the tefillah and Torah learning of every human being, noatter his deeds, has rippling influence on the entire creation, and has singular value.

Of course the ideal is a Talmid Chacham who is simultaneously a tzadik, with actions that sing of his learning. Of course what every person learning Torah should strive for is concepts like " Ain hamedrash ikkar..." and "derech eretz kadmah l' Torah". But this does not negate the impact of Torah learning by ANYONE, regardless of his deeds. Torah is comprised of the sacred letters of the aleph-bes, the spiritual DNA of creation, and when Torah is learned the letters form spiritual codes which renew the life force of the world, enacting the cycles of nature on which the universe depends. And this takes place when anyone learns, even a rasha.

Is Torah of greater value from a person with refined character? Of course. But it does have intrinsic value, even from a morally bankrupt person. This might not feel good to hear, but the the second section of Nefesh Hachaim is devoted to this concept, and another interesting place to look would be mefarshim on the words " V'salmud Torah k'neged kulam."


I think we're in agreement. I said it's not worth much, but I wouldn't say it's worth nothing.
Torah should be transformative. OTOH, one can always hope that whether or not it's obvious, there is some impact and it will out, given the right catalyst, so I wouldn't tell someone, you're a lowlife, don't get anywhere near a sefer, even if he were.
And much better that said lowlife spend time learning than committing mayhem.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 3:53 pm
marina wrote:
I don't think I agree with this. I think many people are kind and good people in the eyes of God and they have never heard of the Torah.


On this year's Ohr Sameach tour in May, I think, (Rabbi Tatz, Rabbi Breitowitz, and Rabbi Gottlieb toured the US) Rabbi Tatz's speech was, b'kitzur, that people do have a respectable sense of morality but that the Torah perspective is necessary and can be surprising, so we can't rely on our own sense of morality but need to study or consult. He mentioned a number of classic ethical situations.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 4:00 pm
zaq wrote:
As for Acher aka Elisha ben Avuya, his later apostasy did not cancel out his earlier Torah. Before his apostasy he was called by name and his opinions were recorded in the Talmud. Afterwards he was called “acher” to dissociate the apostate from the Torah scholar and leave the Torah contributions unsullied. A rather brilliant way to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We have no way of knowing his or anyone else’s ultimate fate, whether his learning outweighed his apostasy or vice versa. As more than one person has posted, we are not G-d’s bookkeepers. We can speculate all we like but at the end of the day we must believe that He knows what’s what and his Scales of Justice never need recalibration.

TBH I think EbA got something of a bum rap. He was one of four of the greatest Torah minds of the day who ascended to the “Pardes” . Whatever it was that they saw there was too much for even such mental giants as these to handle. One died, one went insane, EbA became an apostate and only Rabbi Akiva came back unscathed. (I’ve often wondered if RA was so strong precisely because he didn’t start life as a yeshiva bocher. Maybe his hardscrabble beginnings gave him a certain practicality and stability that the others lacked.)

In any case, it’s not as if EbA was from the beginning hanging out wit da boyz fum da hood in bars and brothels after night seder. He went through an exceptionally traumatic experience that killed one of his buddies and destroyed the mind of another. Maybe each of them had a different hidden weakness that determined his response. Maybe EbA had a seed of heresy in his makeup that would never have germinated had he not gone through this experience. And maybe that’s why the man “before” gets credit for the good he did before his faith was destroyed.


Another factor is that his father gave him a Jewish education not lishma but for kavod. The gemara describes Avuya's awe of the sages, and it wasn't pure. Again, sad for the son, but that was the nurture he got, besides his own nature.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 5:01 pm
Seas wrote:
Actually Chazal say that someone who's commanded and does gets more schar than someone who is not commanded and does. This means the schar is much greater when one is mekayem a mitzvah they are mechuyav to keep than one they aren't mechuyav.

The reasoning given is that when one is mechuyav the Yetzer Horah will try and stop them, whereas with mitzvos one doesn't need to keep he's not really bothered.

Women don't really have a mitzvah of Torah learning at all. They are mechuyav to acquire the knowledge of halachos they need to keep, but it's not the mitzvah of limmud hatorah for its own sake.


A woman who wants to learn, learning makes her closer hence is a big mitzvah.

I'm not talking of agenda learners
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 7:50 pm
Ruchel wrote:
A woman who wants to learn, learning makes her closer hence is a big mitzvah.

I'm not talking of agenda learners


Not really. There is no mitzvah of limmud hatorah per se for women. There is - as previously mentioned - an obligation to acquire the knowledge of halacos pertaining to them, but no mitzvah of torah learning in and of itself.

For example a woman learning basic hilchos Shabbos is doing a mitzvah, but for a man even learning say about korbanos is the mitzvah of limmud hatorah.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 11:22 pm
We don't know what the ultimate fate of Acher (Elisha ben Avuyah) in the next world, but we do know about Korach. Korach was definitely a talmid chacham.

Yes, Acher's Torah is still counted in the Gemarah, but I think I was bringing him as an example of someone who lost his schar of learning, because he did something wrong later on. From what I understand, it's quite possible for a person to lose his schar, I'm not completely sure about the parameters, and I hope this doesn't happen to anyone I know!!!

Someone just told me that one explanation to the chazal - I don't remember the Hebrew- but that women have more schar then men - is because if a woman thinks that her husband is going to learn, and she helps him do that, she gets the schar, even if her husband is not learning, so he doesn't get the schar, if that makes sense...
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 10 2017, 7:59 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
We don't know what the ultimate fate of Acher (Elisha ben Avuyah) in the next world, but we do know about Korach. Korach was definitely a talmid chacham.

Yes, Acher's Torah is still counted in the Gemarah, but I think I was bringing him as an example of someone who lost his schar of learning, because he did something wrong later on. From what I understand, it's quite possible for a person to lose his schar, I'm not completely sure about the parameters, and I hope this doesn't happen to anyone I know!!!

Someone just told me that one explanation to the chazal - I don't remember the Hebrew- but that women have more schar then men - is because if a woman thinks that her husband is going to learn, and she helps him do that, she gets the schar, even if her husband is not learning, so he doesn't get the schar, if that makes sense...


We do know what happened to Acher but I can't find my notes now. Ultimately he made it to olam haba, iirc he did some sort of end teshuva but was in limbo till someone davened for him. Something like this.

I try not to have too many cheshbonos. I want to work on loving Torah. I read a beautiful article in Mishpacha about Rabbi David Forhman and his passionate love for Torah. I'm sure I'll get some schar for it. Definitely sweetness in this world too.
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