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I am having a very hard time hosting families. Need advice!
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 9:52 am
Unfortunately I've experienced the same as the OP but with family and friends. I've had nieces and nephews all too often break and ruin my things . When I say anything, I suddenly become the "bad" one. It came to a point where I just don't invite certain family members and I don't invite certain friends either. The amount of cleanup and repair that I've had to put in just made constant hosting not worth it.
This Succos was our first without guests and it feels so weird and unnatural for me yet I have to say I'm definitely more sane...
Unfortunately today's kids are not taught the basics in derech Eretz and manners and lots of parents don't discipline their kids either.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 10:00 am
This is why I don't eat out at other ppl's homes. I do discipline my children, but I live in a very child friendly home, and I have my house set up in a way that makes it easier for me and I don't turn into some mom -police nut as often (we all have been like this at some point during the day.If you say you are never like this, you must be lying). Why would I want to be a guest in someone else's home and it is 10x more work? And I would freak out if my host had a white couch. People used to invite me all the time to meals and I just said no so many times no one ever bothers anymore. Ladies, just say no! Eating at other ppl's houses isn't wonderful. You want company? visit for an hour in the afternoon and shmooze.
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Optimystic




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 10:20 am
Squishy wrote:
The has 8 likes so far. It also has 11 hugs. I don't know whether they are hugs or dislikes.


Okay, so I am pretty new here. For me, a hug always means a hug. Sometimes I like and hug the same post. By now I have probably ruined the metrics on multiple threads. :|
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Shani88




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:03 pm
I know this is not what you want to hear but you shouldn’t host if you feel abused and taken advantage of afterwards. As a mother of small kids, I do not accept meal invitations often for the very reason of not knowing how my kids are going to behave. Young kids/toddlers are often times riled up by their friends and may behave worse due to having too much sugar, being extra hyper, wanting to be silly, etc. We prefer eating meals only with family who know what to expect from my kids. If you expect the patents you host to be disciplining their children and cleaning up after them the entire time, you’d probably have a table full of food with no one sitting down to eat. That’s just the reality of life with little kids. My suggestion- only invite parents of older children or those without any.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 12:59 pm
OP here. Thank you for all the responses. I will try to answer some of the questions. I prefer to not state where I live, but I will say it's in the US and not in NY.

Obviously there are many other ways to make friends, both for myself and for my kids. Having families for shabbos just seemed like a very effective way to do both simultaneously, plus it keeps the day from feeling so long, kids complaining they're bored, etc. I like to know the parents of the kids my children want to play with before I send my kids over there. I don't have babies at home - all my kids are in school. I work now, so no meeting ladies for coffee or going to midday classes. After school I am devoted to giving my children attention, help with homework, reading with them, etc. plus there is always laundry and cleaning and I'm exhausted so I only very rarely will go out in the evenings to a class or social event. My kids have certainly made friends at school, but only a handful live in close proximity to get together on shabbos. I am trying to broaden the base of friends they have in the neighborhood so they will always have kids to play with.

Someone asked if I only invite so I will be invited. Well, clearly not because very few people we've had over - even those who have been over 2 or 3 times over the course of the year - have invited us. I'm okay with that. I'm not yearning for the invitation. I'm happiest (even with all my complaints) in my own home eating my own food. Still, I can't help but wonder why we don't get many invitations. It seems like with the exception of some unusual circumstances (financial troubles or health issues) most people should have the courtesy to extend the invitation. But again, this is not my complaint here at all.

So, what's so wrong with a kid bouncing on my couch? What's the harm? Well, possibly nothing. If it's a baby or small toddler, without shoes, just gently bouncing, probably nothing will happen to my sofa. If it's a child with shoes, then filth is getting on my furniture. If it's a larger or more boisterous child, bouncing like they're on a trampoline, then they are probably going to damage the fabric, the cushions, the structure or all of the above. It happens to be that I have nice, costly furniture. We saved up a long time to have this furniture and it pains me to see people acting like it's a playground. But really, what if it was a cheap old couch bursting at the seams? That would make it okay to jump on? No. I don't think so. It's not how I was raised. I can't tell you how many times I asked a kid to stop jumping and he/she answered me, "my mother lets." My parents raised us to treat the furniture and things in our home (which happened to be very nice) with respect and that when we went out into the world and into other people's homes to treat their things with an even higher level of respect. Even if they didn't look new or nice or valuable. That didn't matter. It was drilled into us from a young age that it's not ours so it's not ours to abuse and damage. So when a kid jumps and then tells me that his mother lets, I'm in shock that this child has never encountered a house where jumping on furniture is not okay or been presented with the idea that maybe the way we behave at home is not the way we behave everywhere else.

I really try to handle all the situations which come up with a calm and pleasant demeanor. I don't shout at kids and I don't reprimand parents. I do ask kids to please keep food at the table, please take out only one game at a time, please keep shoes of the sofa, etc. etc. and sometimes they comply and sometimes not. They are kids. They are not the ones I have a beef with.

It's the adults. I am trying so hard to be calm on the exterior even when I'm freaking out inside. Maybe I've been too successful or maybe I need to just be more clear. For example, if I saw an 18 month old child with chocolate frosting covered hands running around so I immediately jumped up and got something to clean the child with and made a comment to the mother, "wow, he really had a good time with that brownie. Let's get him cleaned up." Her reply, "oh, that's okay, I'll just clean him up at home." Well, um, no it's not really okay. Because clearly the chocolate all over him is not bothering him. That was not my concern. My concern is my furniture and freshly painted walls. So maybe it's my problem for not being specific enough. I guess I needed to say, "wow, he really had a good time with that brownie. Let's get him cleaned up before he starts leaving those cute little chocolate hand prints all over our walls and furniture!" But really, the fact that it needs saying just depresses me. I can't understand it at all.

Anyhow, I think I definitely need to step back from the craziness of having so many young kids over for a while. And I am going to make a point of seeking out singles and older couples. I feel sad when a shabbos goes by without a guest but this has really just been taking a toll on me and I don't want to feel angry at people anymore.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 5:50 pm
I wouldn't be able to tolerate the kinds of behavior you describe, OP. Some families are just too big, noisy or rowdy for me to handle. I have close relatives I don't invite because their kids are too rambunctious. My home is my castle, and if someone's kids are going to demolish my castle, I see no reason to invite them. I'm prepared to come to their house and calmly watch their kids demolish their home, but if I'm going to reciprocate, it'll be for an adults-only event. If that makes me a bad neighbor or bad aunt or sister-in-law, so be it.

Come to think of it, most of our guests are singles and older couples. Gee I wonder why?
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 7:58 pm
In my older age, I have lost my ability to hide my disapproval at outlandish acts by people's children. My expression betrays me even when I didn't want to say anything. So, I try to do everyone a favor and just not be in that situation.

On the other hand, we were guests of very good friends of ours and my middle child was just not feeling it. He was bored and wanted an accomplice to play a game and all the games were forbidden that night. The host was tense and I was tense. I did not enjoy that at all.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 8:00 pm
I recently had the Zechus of meeting with a distinguished elementary school principal. He says that often parents in our generation are afraid to say "No" because they are afraid the children will go off the derech. He says that it's just the opposite, that children who are never told the word "No" are more likely to go off the derech.
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mirror




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 8:03 pm
Squishy wrote:

I once told the daughter of a guest not to stand on my white couch. Her mother deliberately placed the bottom of her own feet on that couch. I then told her not to let her daughter mix up the game pieces and to only take out one game at a time. She then argued wth me that it is creative play. These were games like mousetrap, scrabble, monopoly, and life. I spent hours sorting out her creative play. This was over a 3 day yom tov.


This is extreme. The mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
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Orchid




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 8:15 pm
amother wrote:
OP here. Thank you for all the responses. I will try to answer some of the questions. I prefer to not state where I live, but I will say it's in the US and not in NY.

Obviously there are many other ways to make friends, both for myself and for my kids. Having families for shabbos just seemed like a very effective way to do both simultaneously, plus it keeps the day from feeling so long, kids complaining they're bored, etc. I like to know the parents of the kids my children want to play with before I send my kids over there. I don't have babies at home - all my kids are in school. I work now, so no meeting ladies for coffee or going to midday classes. After school I am devoted to giving my children attention, help with homework, reading with them, etc. plus there is always laundry and cleaning and I'm exhausted so I only very rarely will go out in the evenings to a class or social event. My kids have certainly made friends at school, but only a handful live in close proximity to get together on shabbos. I am trying to broaden the base of friends they have in the neighborhood so they will always have kids to play with.

Someone asked if I only invite so I will be invited. Well, clearly not because very few people we've had over - even those who have been over 2 or 3 times over the course of the year - have invited us. I'm okay with that. I'm not yearning for the invitation. I'm happiest (even with all my complaints) in my own home eating my own food. Still, I can't help but wonder why we don't get many invitations. It seems like with the exception of some unusual circumstances (financial troubles or health issues) most people should have the courtesy to extend the invitation. But again, this is not my complaint here at all.

So, what's so wrong with a kid bouncing on my couch? What's the harm? Well, possibly nothing. If it's a baby or small toddler, without shoes, just gently bouncing, probably nothing will happen to my sofa. If it's a child with shoes, then filth is getting on my furniture. If it's a larger or more boisterous child, bouncing like they're on a trampoline, then they are probably going to damage the fabric, the cushions, the structure or all of the above. It happens to be that I have nice, costly furniture. We saved up a long time to have this furniture and it pains me to see people acting like it's a playground. But really, what if it was a cheap old couch bursting at the seams? That would make it okay to jump on? No. I don't think so. It's not how I was raised. I can't tell you how many times I asked a kid to stop jumping and he/she answered me, "my mother lets." My parents raised us to treat the furniture and things in our home (which happened to be very nice) with respect and that when we went out into the world and into other people's homes to treat their things with an even higher level of respect. Even if they didn't look new or nice or valuable. That didn't matter. It was drilled into us from a young age that it's not ours so it's not ours to abuse and damage. So when a kid jumps and then tells me that his mother lets, I'm in shock that this child has never encountered a house where jumping on furniture is not okay or been presented with the idea that maybe the way we behave at home is not the way we behave everywhere else.

I really try to handle all the situations which come up with a calm and pleasant demeanor. I don't shout at kids and I don't reprimand parents. I do ask kids to please keep food at the table, please take out only one game at a time, please keep shoes of the sofa, etc. etc. and sometimes they comply and sometimes not. They are kids. They are not the ones I have a beef with.

It's the adults. I am trying so hard to be calm on the exterior even when I'm freaking out inside. Maybe I've been too successful or maybe I need to just be more clear. For example, if I saw an 18 month old child with chocolate frosting covered hands running around so I immediately jumped up and got something to clean the child with and made a comment to the mother, "wow, he really had a good time with that brownie. Let's get him cleaned up." Her reply, "oh, that's okay, I'll just clean him up at home." Well, um, no it's not really okay. Because clearly the chocolate all over him is not bothering him. That was not my concern. My concern is my furniture and freshly painted walls. So maybe it's my problem for not being specific enough. I guess I needed to say, "wow, he really had a good time with that brownie. Let's get him cleaned up before he starts leaving those cute little chocolate hand prints all over our walls and furniture!" But really, the fact that it needs saying just depresses me. I can't understand it at all.

Anyhow, I think I definitely need to step back from the craziness of having so many young kids over for a while. And I am going to make a point of seeking out singles and older couples. I feel sad when a shabbos goes by without a guest but this has really just been taking a toll on me and I don't want to feel angry at people anymore.


I do think you should be more direct to the adults, crazy as it is that it's necessary altogether. "Do you mind washing his hands? Don't want his chocolaty hands getting on our newly painted walls."
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 09 2017, 11:22 pm
amother wrote:
I wouldn't be able to tolerate the kinds of behavior you describe, OP. Some families are just too big, noisy or rowdy for me to handle. I have close relatives I don't invite because their kids are too rambunctious. My home is my castle, and if someone's kids are going to demolish my castle, I see no reason to invite them. I'm prepared to come to their house and calmly watch their kids demolish their home, but if I'm going to reciprocate, it'll be for an adults-only event. If that makes me a bad neighbor or bad aunt or sister-in-law, so be it.

Come to think of it, most of our guests are singles and older couples. Gee I wonder why?


Burlywood, thank you for putting words to my emotions! Now I know I'm not alone! Very Happy
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eimhabonim




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 10 2017, 2:06 am
I'd try to make your rules clear at the outset of the visit. "Kids, this is the play area. Toys need to stay in here and before you leave, you need to put 3 toys away. Moms, the kids can run around over here and have a good time, but please make sure that food stays at the table and that their hands and faces are clean when they leave and go to play."

Some of the stuff you described is outrageous, but some are things that the parents aren't necessarily makpid on at home and aren't thinking about.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Tue, Oct 10 2017, 3:00 am
amother wrote:
I am married over 20 years. I very have always very much enjoyed cooking and hosting. We have always had lots of people over for shabbos & yt meals, melava malka, hosted sheva brochos, all kinds of parties. I never had a problem. It has always been my pleasure. But I lived most of my married life in a non-frum community involved in outreach. Which meant I was never faced with guests with large families or many small kids. Most people had 2,3 kids - ages very spread out.
About a year ago we relocated to a religious community. I have been anxious to make friends and to help my children make friends and so right away rather than wait to be invited, I started inviting over everyone I met that I thought my family might click with. The invitations are rarely reciprocated, but that's another issue altogether.
My issue is that families are coming over here with multiple children - which is fine - and almost always not watching their babies and toddlers well, not caring how much their older children make messes or scream their brains out, and not respecting our home at all.
I don't understand what's going on here. It's not one or two families. It's the vast majority and it makes me feel like maybe there is something wrong with me? Like, is there some understanding that if I invite people with young children then I am to expect this behavior and if I don't like it too bad, I shouldn't have invited? Is it unreasonable to want to have people over and even lots of kids but just expect some level of parenting from the parents?
Some demonstration that they understand my home is not a garbage dump?

I don't understand why I have to be the one to tell a kids to stop jumping on the couch when his mother is right there. I don't understand why I have to be the one to tell other people's kids to come back to the table with their cookies and not wander the house with them. I don't understand why someone's toddler pours a cup of juice on floor and it's me wiping it up while the parents just say "oops." I don't understand why I am the only mother who thinks to tell a group of rowdy boys that the dining room is not a place to play ball, especially by lit shabbos candles. I don't understand why a mother would let a baby sit in her lap mashing up a large slice of chocolate cake which is then massaged into my table cloth and then put the baby down so the cake can also be mashed into the floor and then the walls. I don't understand how a mother can go to collect her children to go home, see the insane mess that they participated in making in the playroom and not even ask her children to help

clean up, at least for a few minutes.
I am so exhausted from all this. Maybe people will tell me my expectations of people are too high, but if so that's really sad. Because I really want to have friends and for my children to have friends, but 9 out of 10 times since I moved here I feel abused when my guests go
home. I am worn out and I don't know how to handle this other than to just stop having people over altogether, which I hope is not what it has to come to.

I thought that I'd do better over sukkot since we're outside, but you know it wasn't so much better. I had a mother let her baby crawl back and forth on the table where we were eating.
a smelly dirty diaper no less. I just could not believe it. And I watched a couple watch their toddler take a full loaf of challah, put it on the floor of the sukkah and jump on it
repeatedly. They just watched. When it became clear they were not going to act I snatched
it out from under his feet and threw it out. They still said nothing.


If not for my kids I would just be done. I would only invite empty-nesters or singles. For their sake, I want to find a way to still host families with kids and not lose it -- but I just don't know if that's possible. I feel like I am surrounded by such uncouth, selfish, disrespectful people. I really can't understand this. I would never let my children do these things. I would never treat another person's home with such little regard. Is this the norm these days? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone or something.

Anyhow, if there is any practical advice to give I would love to hear it. If not, it was good just to vent.


As I read more and more of your post, I got more and more puzzled, confused even.
Just to make sure I read right:
Were you graciously hosting people, as in- HUMAN BEINGS???
Or the "residents" of your nearest zoo???

I really couldn't believe what I was reading. esp. parents watching their toddler jump on a challah!!!

I feel serious action is needed here for your sanity, and also to gently teach these people etiquette when being hosted.
Seriously, some people don't know.
Also I've found throughout my years of hosting families, that the Mommy feels she can lounge on the couch and let her kids free rein - have that much needed relaxation, when she's by someone else's home. I'm not badmouthing. We all know Mommies get stressed out with daily life, and many of them feel this way.

What I did when hosting, even though it wasn't so pleasant at first. But I had to choose between some unpleasantness or stopping to host.

We put up notices on large sheets of cardboard, written in bold to make sure that it is clearly visible to the eye:
example of 2 types of notices|:

- We really enjoy having our guests over and are so happy that you came: kindly make sure that your sweet kids clear up the toys they played with before you go home.
Thank you. And a pic. of a smiley.

- another notice: same beginning .... our dining room is currently not a football grounds, kindly watch that your sweet kids don't play ball there. We have breakable items there.
Thank you. Smile

I locked the rooms, bedrooms, that weren't needed to be used, to avoid kiddos roaming around in all the rooms, while eating cake or other foods.

Re toys: If I'm having guests with little children: I locked part of the toy closet, and make available like 2-3 types of toys for younger kids and older.
NEVER lets little kids play with games that have like a "million" pieces. You'll be seeing those pieces in your dreams the next few nights.

This is all I can think of for now.

Hope this helps, be'H.




















































As I read more of your post, I got more puzzled, confused.

Just to make sure I understood correct:
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 10 2017, 3:23 am
You have every right to expect guests to follow your rules in your home. And some of what you described is really outrageous.

That said:

- you can't expect guests to just know what your rules are. It doesn't matter how reasonable you think your rules are, or how obvious you think it should be. They are from a different culture and different life circumstances, and it's not obvious to them. Whether it should be obvious doesn't matter. It isn't. So say something! Tell your guests, "please make sure the children keep the food at the table," or "please be sure to wash their hands immediately after the meal, we just painted the walls and I don't want food stains," or "we're going to start bentching soon, so the kids should start cleaning up." Etc.

- you need a certain amount of flexibility re: implementation. People with a few young kids can't always keep track of all of their kids at once. Kids don't always behave, even if they know the rules. Parents don't always notice the second a child starts doing something wrong, especially if they do it differently at their house (IOW someone who lets her kids take cookies into the living room, won't immediately notice every time they're doing that at your house, even if you've explained your rules). That's not because they're unspeakably rude; it's because they're human.

- remember that people won't be comfortable enforcing rules on your kids in your house. Like, if your kids and theirs are playing together, they aren't going to say "clean up" unless you say it's time to clean up. Or to say "kids, be careful" or "quiet down." They don't want to be rude by implying that your children are misbehaving, if you haven't said so.

- don't take it so personally. It looks like disrespect to you because you are aware that these are things that bother other people. So if you did something like that, it would be because you didn't care if you were bothering the other person. They, though, don't realize that. Maybe they should, but they don't. So when they do these things, it's not because they don't care, it's just because to them, this is normal, everyday life with little kids.

*
On a slightly different note - are your standards reasonable? Mostly. But they're also hard to maintain with several little kids around. Of course families with 2-3 kids have higher standards than the average family with 6-8 kids; people who believe they need to make sure their children always eat nicely, play nicely, not make too much noise, stay at the table, etc, usually don't have as many kids.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 10 2017, 5:26 am
ora_43 wrote:
You have every right to expect guests to follow your rules in your home. And some of what you described is really outrageous.

That said:

- you can't expect guests to just know what your rules are. It doesn't matter how reasonable you think your rules are, or how obvious you think it should be. They are from a different culture and different life circumstances, and it's not obvious to them. Whether it should be obvious doesn't matter. It isn't. So say something! Tell your guests, "please make sure the children keep the food at the table," or "please be sure to wash their hands immediately after the meal, we just painted the walls and I don't want food stains," or "we're going to start bentching soon, so the kids should start cleaning up." Etc.

- you need a certain amount of flexibility re: implementation. People with a few young kids can't always keep track of all of their kids at once. Kids don't always behave, even if they know the rules. Parents don't always notice the second a child starts doing something wrong, especially if they do it differently at their house (IOW someone who lets her kids take cookies into the living room, won't immediately notice every time they're doing that at your house, even if you've explained your rules). That's not because they're unspeakably rude; it's because they're human.

- remember that people won't be comfortable enforcing rules on your kids in your house. Like, if your kids and theirs are playing together, they aren't going to say "clean up" unless you say it's time to clean up. Or to say "kids, be careful" or "quiet down." They don't want to be rude by implying that your children are misbehaving, if you haven't said so.

- don't take it so personally. It looks like disrespect to you because you are aware that these are things that bother other people. So if you did something like that, it would be because you didn't care if you were bothering the other person. They, though, don't realize that. Maybe they should, but they don't. So when they do these things, it's not because they don't care, it's just because to them, this is normal, everyday life with little kids.

*
On a slightly different note - are your standards reasonable? Mostly. But they're also hard to maintain with several little kids around. Of course families with 2-3 kids have higher standards than the average family with 6-8 kids; people who believe they need to make sure their children always eat nicely, play nicely, not make too much noise, stay at the table, etc, usually don't have as many kids.


The words animal and human have been thrown around on this thread. Some of OP's complaints are so basic that they shouldn't be done different anywhere ever. No putting the challah on the floor and jumping on it is only common sense. The same is true for no playing ball by lit candles.

I find somethings this lack of common sense/lack of consideration is also in first time parents. They are so delighted with their babies that they think everything they do is so wonderful.

Early in the morning, eruv Pesach while DH was still in shul, a young matron came over to show off her first baby. She was visiting her mother from out of town. She told me her baby was hungry, and there was nothing to eat in her mother's house. She asked for a macaroon when she spotted a box. I watched as let him eat this in her arms dropping crumbs all over my floor 3 ft from the door. She told me this is how her baby likes to eat. Really??? I gave her the entire box to go. Let her mother deal with her.

Another time, a pulpit Rabbi and his wife came over with their first child. He was walking right behind his baby watching him poke buttons on my microwaves. I told him this could wreck my appliances. He told me the baby likes to press buttons. Excuse me??? He also reached up, brought down, and gave objects to his baby that his baby wanted to "see". His wife was right there during this. Her answer was that it was his turn to watch their baby.

OTOH, some of my friends with double digit kids have the nicest, most well behaved, eidel children. Other of my friends have lots of young children closely spaced together. One friend has 7 kids with her oldest being 12. Her children are a delight to host. Another friend has13 children. She has the older ones watch the younger. I LOVE being around this family.

Respect for others should be a basic instilled in every child early. Classroom teachers can control 30 kids. It is not impossible to control 6 or 8.
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Tue, Oct 10 2017, 7:59 am
This thread just reminded me of guests my mother had years ago. Probably almost 20 years ago.
It was a family with lots of girls that finally had a boy. This boy was at a super cheeky toddler stage that the family found hysterical. Everything he would do they just laughed and said 'oh, that's what boys do'. He terrorised the house and they just laughed because 'that's what boys do'.
Every game was opened and tipped out, mess, food etc.

It became a part of our family jokes, but my mother didn't have them back for a while
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Bitchi bashem




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 10 2017, 8:18 am
My advise to you - years of experience hosting families in Yomtov/ Shabbos : do not be shy to make boundaries. Say it with a big smile on your face because children do need boundaries, (even mothers sit and let children mess all around).
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 10 2017, 9:49 am
Respect for others should be a basic instilled in every child early. Classroom teachers can control 30 kids. It is not impossible to control 6 or 8.[/quote]

The best thing I've heard for a long long time!
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