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amother




Periwinkle


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:26 am
amother wrote:
I dont want to aggravate you. You ask what happens? In my world if someone goes to certain colleges, they can forget about being employed in the community.


Because your world so hates, or so fears, a certain stream of Judaism. Does that strike you as acceptable?
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DrMom









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:35 am
amother wrote:
I dont want to aggravate you. You ask what happens? In my world if someone goes to certain colleges, they can forget about being employed in the community.

It would seem that getting an excellent secular education opens employment possibilities far beyond your community. Isn't that one of the objectives of getting a first-rate education? Better employment opportunities?
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cbsp









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:37 am
amother wrote:
Because your world so hates, or so fears, a certain stream of Judaism. Does that strike you as acceptable?


Did you find acceptable the post above where it was stated they'd rather send to PS than a chareidi institution?
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DrMom









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:42 am
cbsp wrote:
Did you find acceptable the post above where it was stated they'd rather send to PS than a chareidi institution?

I am the one who said I would prefer to send my child to public school that a strongly chareidi institution.

I never said I would discriminate against employing graduates of such a school system.

That sort of discriminatory attitude is one of the many reasons why I would avoid those institutions when seeking education for my children.
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amother




Burlywood


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:48 am
amother wrote:
Because your world so hates, or so fears, a certain stream of Judaism. Does that strike you as acceptable?


No.
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amother




Periwinkle


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:51 am
cbsp wrote:
Did you find acceptable the post above where it was stated they'd rather send to PS than a chareidi institution?


Actually, no. I disagree. If that were my only choice, I'd do it. However, the question isn't really fair in that:
1. Charedi schools demand conformity, MO schools don't, and
2. Charedi schools (Chabad excepted) probably wouldn't take my child anyway.
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amother




Burlywood


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:56 am
DrMom wrote:
It would seem that getting an excellent secular education opens employment possibilities far beyond your community. Isn't that one of the objectives of getting a first-rate education? Better employment opportunities?


True. But that would involve lots of travel. To travel for college is one thing. You know its going to end. When it comes to being supervised/employed, one wants to be as close to home as possible.
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emhabanim









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 1:00 am
amother wrote:
True. But that would involve lots of travel. To travel for college is one thing. You know its going to end. When it comes to being supervised/employed, one wants to be as close to home as possible.


Lots of travel??? Plenty of people with solid secular degrees work in NYC not far from their homes in nj or Brooklyn or queens and rarely if ever travel.


Just because you are employed in a professional position in a solid company does not necessarily mean you will travel. It depends on the specific job.
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amother




Bronze


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 1:07 am
amother wrote:
So, better to be surrounded by all kinds of perversion than to somehow "affiliate" yourself with MO? I'm not buying it.

Unlike yeshivish and chassidish institutions, where attendance means affiliation, YU doesn't have a hashkafic litmus test, nor does it demand conformity. (I leave aside the fact that if your parents believe in secular learning lechatchila, they probably would pass the litmus test anyway.)

Why the need for distance? What would happen if people knew you went to Stern? I'm curious to know what this affiliation entails.

What would happen is: I wouldn't be eligible to marry a yeshivish boy. (Obviously I'm not talking hardcore - they wouldn't look at a college girl all together) my inlaws wouldn't have considered me, nor any of the other guys I got "yesses" from.
To be honest - and I've mentioned this already- I probably wouldn't have wanted one anyways, had I gone to stern. My yeshivish hashkafah would've possibly been diluted ( I'm not saying bad - I'm saying fact of life).
All kinds of perversions in secular college - went straight over my head. Barely noticed them. There were no clubs or groups or socializing unless for my major and only for school purposes. College wasn't my "fun" or "happy" place, wasn't an experience, it was strictly a place to get an education, get my diploma, and meet acquaintances and professionals in my field. (I remember once reading a poster in the elevator about a tennis match or something. It said "don't forget to bring your balls- no not those balls!!" I was clueless; totally didn't get it. That's how sheltered I was.
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amother




Tangerine


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 1:17 am
I went to Stern and dh to YU and kollel there.
It's easy to see who never stepped foot in YU by remarks that group all of YU into one stereotypical type or mold.

I don't align myself with MO. If you met me and dh and didn't know our backgrounds you would probably assume we are yeshivish. But you'd also realize we are open minded, don't view things as black and white and have strong educational backgrounds. You'd also be confused as to why so many of dh longest and closest friends are very frum, many give daf Yomi shiurim in yeshivish communities, yet are also dentists, doctors, super successful lawyers etc.

YU and Lander boys can be very serious learners. Very frum. Very machmir on Halacha and very seriously pursuing professional degrees and solid parnassa plans.

20 years ago when I was in grad school a classmate of mine told me she was having trouble in shidduchim because the bmg guys wouldn't date her since she had a degree. Today they would chase her.

20 years ago there was no pcs accounting degrees from Agudah and no FDU bein hazmanim degrees. Such talk would have been heresy. But reality is that people do need education so these programs were started. Yet nobody admitted that it validated the YU haskafa of education and professional training in any way.

As time goes on we will see more frum programs for degrees. Because we have no choice. Reality and economics dictate they are needed. MO will go to YU and Stern. As will ppl like me who are lot modern orthodox but are right wing YU ( very frum very halachik no shtick value self sufficiency). And others will run to the new programs the yeshivish community establishes.

And unfortunately Stern girls who want to marry certain guys who are not only YU types but are Chofetz Chaim or Ner Yisrael or Ohr Hachaim types might not get the yes to the shidduch date. It's superficial and stupid because we all know plenty of bais Yackov grads who will get those "yeses" and are not as sincerely frum or tznius. But the resume was right.

Anon bc I have friends on this site to identify me.
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amother




Burgundy


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 2:35 am
amother wrote:
I went to Stern and dh to YU and kollel there.
It's easy to see who never stepped foot in YU by remarks that group all of YU into one stereotypical type or mold.

I don't align myself with MO. If you met me and dh and didn't know our backgrounds you would probably assume we are yeshivish. But you'd also realize we are open minded, don't view things as black and white and have strong educational backgrounds. You'd also be confused as to why so many of dh longest and closest friends are very frum, many give daf Yomi shiurim in yeshivish communities, yet are also dentists, doctors, super successful lawyers etc.

YU and Lander boys can be very serious learners. Very frum. Very machmir on Halacha and very seriously pursuing professional degrees and solid parnassa plans.

20 years ago when I was in grad school a classmate of mine told me she was having trouble in shidduchim because the bmg guys wouldn't date her since she had a degree. Today they would chase her.

20 years ago there was no pcs accounting degrees from Agudah and no FDU bein hazmanim degrees. Such talk would have been heresy. But reality is that people do need education so these programs were started. Yet nobody admitted that it validated the YU haskafa of education and professional training in any way.

As time goes on we will see more frum programs for degrees. Because we have no choice. Reality and economics dictate they are needed. MO will go to YU and Stern. As will ppl like me who are lot modern orthodox but are right wing YU ( very frum very halachik no shtick value self sufficiency). And others will run to the new programs the yeshivish community establishes.

And unfortunately Stern girls who want to marry certain guys who are not only YU types but are Chofetz Chaim or Ner Yisrael or Ohr Hachaim types might not get the yes to the shidduch date. It's superficial and stupid because we all know plenty of bais Yackov grads who will get those "yeses" and are not as sincerely frum or tznius. But the resume was right.

Anon bc I have friends on this site to identify me.


I also went to Stern, seemingly a few years after you did, and I second this post. Very true and well explained.

I don't really understand why people assume that frum girls in a secular college must not subscribe to the college's philosophy, but cannot seem to grasp that many who go/went to Stern do not subscribe to Stern/YU's philosophy. A large percentage of the numerous people I know who went to Stern do not consider themselves MO. On the other hand, almost all the people I know who went to Ivy League or other top colleges did so because they were looking for that type of "open-minded" education.
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cbsp









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 2:49 am
amother tangerine wrote:
I went to Stern and dh to YU and kollel there.
It's easy to see who never stepped foot in YU by remarks that group all of YU into one stereotypical type or mold.

I don't align myself with MO. If you met me and dh and didn't know our backgrounds you would probably assume we are yeshivish. But you'd also realize we are open minded, don't view things as black and white and have strong educational backgrounds. You'd also be confused as to why so many of dh longest and closest friends are very frum, many give daf Yomi shiurim in yeshivish communities, yet are also dentists, doctors, super successful lawyers etc.

YU and Lander boys can be very serious learners. Very frum. Very machmir on Halacha and very seriously pursuing professional degrees and solid parnassa plans.

20 years ago when I was in grad school a classmate of mine told me she was having trouble in shidduchim because the bmg guys wouldn't date her since she had a degree. Today they would chase her.

20 years ago there was no pcs accounting degrees from Agudah and no FDU bein hazmanim degrees. Such talk would have been heresy. But reality is that people do need education so these programs were started. Yet nobody admitted that it validated the YU haskafa of education and professional training in any way.




(for the record I'm attempting an explanation as it's been explained to me. This is not a statement of my own hashkafah)

Because it doesn't. A majority of the objection to YU is that it's equally a Yeshiva and a college. It has nothing to do with how shtark or machmir the young man is.

AFAIK, the "frummie" programs are not an equal part of of any yeshivish yeshiva. They're a(n evil) necessity whose goal is to help the (no longer in learning) yeshivish guy support his family by acquiring the necessary skills in as kosher an environment as possible in as little time as possible. There's no culture, no expected socializing or broadening of horizons, it's pure "tachlis."

For the girls it's slightly different in that there are now seminaries with a broadened offering of a secular degree beyond the traditional teaching certificate. But again, the goal is to minimize the amount of time spent on it and to definitely steer the curriculum away from "problematic" content - again, very tachlis driven so the young lady can get back to her main career which is being wife and mother (shidduch crisis notwithstanding)

And Stern is about the "experience" and the social life and culture. And I'm guessing very little CLEPing. And it's only (for the most part) a stepping stone to higher academics where the learning process is valued as much as the job opportunities. There's an image of a "Stern Girl" that was not invented by the yeshivish crowd (I first heard the term as a positive description of a girl my MO cousin was dating - "She's a real 'Stern Girl.' " air quotes and all).

So, a parent who realizes a "frummie" program will not work for their family, might indeed choose the very secular /liberal /fill in the blank/ institution davkah because the values are so foreign and therefore the expectation is zero mingling will occur (just like they currently don't mingle with the non Jewish neighbors). There's to be no socialization or participation in culturally broadening activities, etc.

It's very difficult to maintain that degree of aloofness amongst frum-but-different-derech peers - and even more difficult to do so in a respectful manner. As we see from this conversation, where I think I'm the third or fourth poster to say this yet it's still being met with skepticism that this is the true reason.
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amother




Sapphire


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 9:25 am
There is a shuttle bus between Stern and YU and mingling between the guys and girls is not only acceptable, it is actually promoted.

Stern brought in "the first female Orthodox Rabbi" (Maharat)to speak to the girls. This was viewed by the administration as a positive thing.

There are "frum" gay clubs on campus and they are given legitimacy by the school.

In a secular college, a frum girl would hopefully go to class and leave, and not consider joining any of the social events.
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DrMom









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 9:29 am
amother wrote:
There is a shuttle bus between Stern and YU and mingling between the guys and girls is not only acceptable, it is actually promoted.

Yes, that allows people to date. I know many happy Orthodox couples who met that way. Many of my children's friends are products of these marriages. No shidduch crisis there!
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amother




Forestgreen


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 9:39 am
DrMom wrote:
It would seem that getting an excellent secular education opens employment possibilities far beyond your community. Isn't that one of the objectives of getting a first-rate education? Better employment opportunities?


Unfortunately, the secular world doesn't care that you are Jewish. They don't care that sunset comes earlier on Friday. Your secular education doesn't matter if you are not willing to work the exact same hours as everyone else. Most of the other Jews they hire are not Torah observant; why can't you just be like them? That was my experience anyway. Sorry to sound so harsh Sad

I'm not saying that no one should go to Stern or NYU or Hogwarts. I just don't think we can fault the reasoning of anyone who picks a school based on the kind of employment opportunities they can expect to have when they graduate.
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amother




Periwinkle


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 9:40 am
amother wrote:
There is a shuttle bus between Stern and YU and mingling between the guys and girls is not only acceptable, it is actually promoted.

Stern brought in "the first female Orthodox Rabbi" (Maharat)to speak to the girls. This was viewed by the administration as a positive thing.

There are "frum" gay clubs on campus and they are given legitimacy by the school.

In a secular college, a frum girl would hopefully go to class and leave, and not consider joining any of the social events.


Yes, there's a shuttle bus. It allows the girls to use the better facilities and to attend graduate courses uptown at YU. No one forces anyone to mingle, but I hear matches have been made, and that's a wonderful thing.

There are no frum gay clubs.

Lots of people come to speak, representing a broad spectrum of views. Some are totally neutral. I think the best attended lecture ever was 25 years ago when Will Shortz of the NY Times came to talk about how crossword puzzles are constructed. You don't have to attend any of these lectures. They are after hours, just like the BDS and LGBT lectures at Columbia and NYU.
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amother




Burlywood


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 9:50 am
emhabanim wrote:
Lots of travel??? Plenty of people with solid secular degrees work in NYC not far from their homes in nj or Brooklyn or queens and rarely if ever travel.


Just because you are employed in a professional position in a solid company does not necessarily mean you will travel. It depends on the specific job.


Not everyone lives in the areas you mentioned.
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amother




Burlywood


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 9:51 am
amother wrote:
Unfortunately, the secular world doesn't care that you are Jewish. They don't care that sunset comes earlier on Friday. Your secular education doesn't matter if you are not willing to work the exact same hours as everyone else. Most of the other Jews they hire are not Torah observant; why can't you just be like them? That was my experience anyway. Sorry to sound so harsh Sad

I'm not saying that no one should go to Stern or NYU or Hogwarts. I just don't think we can fault the reasoning of anyone who picks a school based on the kind of employment opportunities they can expect to have when they graduate.


This
Thanks
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amother




Bronze


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 10:08 am
amother wrote:
Yes, there's a shuttle bus. It allows the girls to use the better facilities and to attend graduate courses uptown at YU. No one forces anyone to mingle, but I hear matches have been made, and that's a wonderful thing.

There are no frum gay clubs.

Lots of people come to speak, representing a broad spectrum of views. Some are totally neutral. I think the best attended lecture ever was 25 years ago when Will Shortz of the NY Times came to talk about how crossword puzzles are constructed. You don't have to attend any of these lectures. They are after hours, just like the BDS and LGBT lectures at Columbia and NYU.

Just because no one is forced to mingle, doesn't mean there isn't an atmosphere of mingling. (And that atmosphere is what people worry about - it's not only about premarital sx) Also, for those in the shidduch world where people are introduced with a shadchan, this kind of dating is inappropriate, regardless of shidduchim being made (the end doesn't justify the means kind of thing)
About the lectures: true, no one is forced to attend, but the school is providing a platform for something, and if hashkafically one disagrees with it, in the secular world, the mentality is stay away. In more right wing circles the answer "for the sake of education, intellectualism, etc. " doesn't matter. Hashkafah first, education second. they are not willing to be open minded to the extent that it is at odds with their derech.
If I go to a secular college, I am not
Mixing my Judaism with my education. I am not looking for an ounce of spirituality, or friendship (not that I won't find both, but that is not remotely my intention). The mentality is it's better to separate the two than combine them, if by combining I create a conflict that might lead to a compromise on hashkafic standards. This is why some people prefer secular college.
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DrMom









  


Post  Thu, Oct 12 2017, 12:19 pm
amother wrote:
Unfortunately, the secular world doesn't care that you are Jewish. They don't care that sunset comes earlier on Friday. Your secular education doesn't matter if you are not willing to work the exact same hours as everyone else. Most of the other Jews they hire are not Torah observant; why can't you just be like them? That was my experience anyway. Sorry to sound so harsh Sad

I'm not saying that no one should go to Stern or NYU or Hogwarts. I just don't think we can fault the reasoning of anyone who picks a school based on the kind of employment opportunities they can expect to have when they graduate.

I have an excellent degree and work in a secular company and my team knows that I don't work on shabbatot and chagim. Period. Plenty of Orthodox Jews work successfully in medicine, law, business, engineering, etc.

Furthermore, the original argument for shunning such educational opportunities is that no frum company in the poster's community would hire someone with a secular education from YU/Stern. Not because they were unqualified to perform the job, but because of prejudice against "their type."

I find it odd that nobody objects to this.

I did not attend YU/Stern, but I'd certainly prefer to work in a secular environment where I can find challenging work and where I am judged by my achievements than some dead-end frum office where I would be discriminated against (or not hired at all) for using the brain that Hashem gave me.
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