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How to explain relative with iui?
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amother




Maroon


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 11:17 am
Seas wrote:
Feh. Sinning is bad enough, but to have no shame about it is disgusting and outright chutzpah to Hashem.


HUH?? Look, certain life choices I agree are nothing to celebrate, but once they are done they are done. Are we supposed to ask this person to crawl under a rock and never come out again for our convenience? Your comment is 100% rude and unhelpful.

OP, it's a very hard thing. As of right now all my kids think babies are only for married couples. It would be very hard for me to explain this one to them. I guess how I explained it would depend on my relationship with the relative. If it's someone who is going to be in their life - not just someone who surfaces at a simcha once in a blue moon - I would have no choice but to explain some things to them that I was hoping not to for a few more years.
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Seas









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 11:21 am
amother wrote:
HUH?? Look, certain life choices I agree are nothing to celebrate, but once they are done they are done. Are we supposed to ask this person to crawl under a rock and never come out again for our convenience? Your comment is 100% rude and unhelpful.


That's a strawman argument as I never said.

Let's put it this way, if there was something you did that you were terribly ashamed of, would you tell people about it?

Even if you were honest to a fault and never ever allowed a falsehood to cross your lips, you still would at the very least not broadcast your shame.

When someone tells others they have done an aveiroh, it's solely because they're not at all ashamed of it. And that is the peak of chutzpah.
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amother




Chocolate


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 11:29 am
In seas defense, I think there is something to be said about not announcing your avairos. Sometimes the right thing in certain situations can be to not say the truth. Just because something is the truth doesn't mean it should be said.
(However seas, if you would consider softening your tone, your opinions might be more palatable. )
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tante_feige









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 11:32 am
She never said she ch'v committed an aveirah. She could have done IUI or IVF under Rabbinic guidance (fairly common in Israel), or ch'v been sexually assaulted.

Why are you presuming that a Jew does an aveirah, when there is no chezkas aveirah as required by the Chofetz Chaim ?
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tichellady









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 11:32 am
Seas wrote:
Feh. Sinning is bad enough, but to have no shame about it is disgusting and outright chutzpah to Hashem.


You do you know that a woman can have a child before marriage without sinning? I assume you are not this rude and judgmental in real life.
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tante_feige









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 11:38 am
tichellady wrote:
You do you know that a woman can have a child before marriage without sinning? I assume you are not this rude and judgmental in real life.


She's either a troll, or a hypocrite. Nobody who truly espouses her views would have a Rabbi that holds Imamother is mutter.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 11:48 am
Seas wrote:
Feh. Sinning is bad enough, but to have no shame about it is disgusting and outright chutzpah to Hashem.


What's she supposed to do? Hide the kid? Abandon her? Lie about it?

Anyone with a shred of decency would either be DLZ and assume that no aveira was involved, or commend OP for doing tshuva and leading the life of a frum woman, whatever she may have done in the past.

And talking to another human being, much less another frum Jew, immediately after Yom Kippur, in this manner is, to use your phraseology, disgusting and outright chutzpah to Hashem.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:02 pm
In any case, OP, you just explain simply, and at the child's level.

Usually, you need a man and a woman to have a baby; and in our society, the man and the woman should be married. But sometimes, if a woman hasn't yet met her bashert, and really wants a baby, doctors can help her have one. Its a big decision for her to make. And that's what's happening here.
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Seas









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:07 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
What's she supposed to do? Hide the kid? Abandon her? Lie about it?

Anyone with a shred of decency would either be DLZ and assume that no aveira was involved, or commend OP for doing tshuva and leading the life of a frum woman, whatever she may have done in the past.

And talking to another human being, much less another frum Jew, immediately after Yom Kippur, in this manner is, to use your phraseology, disgusting and outright chutzpah to Hashem.


Doing tshuva is highly commendable, but that is irrelevant to the problem of announcing previous sins. It's actually paskened in Rambam hilchos tshuva that a BT shouldn't tell people about their previous sins, since merely mentioning that one used to act against Hashem is chutzpah in itself.

As I wrote before, if in the past you would have done something you're terribly ashamed of, you wouldn't be broadcasting it. Even after doing tshuva.
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tante_feige









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:10 pm
Seas wrote:
Doing tshuva is highly commendable, but that is irrelevant to the problem of announcing previous sins. It's actually paskened in Rambam hilchos tshuva that a BT shouldn't tell people about their previous sins, since merely mentioning that one used to act against Hashem is chutzpah in itself.

As I wrote before, if in the past you would have done something you're terribly ashamed of, you wouldn't be broadcasting it. Even after doing tshuva.


Thank you for confirming that you aren't going to answer my question.
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cnc









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:12 pm
Seas wrote:
Doing tshuva is highly commendable, but that is irrelevant to the problem of announcing previous sins. It's actually paskened in Rambam hilchos tshuva that a BT shouldn't tell people about their previous sins, since merely mentioning that one used to act against Hashem is chutzpah in itself.

As I wrote before, if in the past you would have done something you're terribly ashamed of, you wouldn't be broadcasting it. Even after doing tshuva.


I'm still curious what should be done with the child.
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pesek zman









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:20 pm
cnc wrote:
I'm still curious what should be done with the child.


It sounds like she's suggesting that she lie to the world, child included, that the child was a product of a failed marriage (should the narrative be that the 'father' is deceased or did he simply abandon the child?) or possibly a regret from a former life. Imagine how this child would feel, thinking that his mom regretted him in any way. Or if he thought that's what his mom were telling everyone, in the name of not being 'chutzpahdik' to Gd

I've long disregarded the posts and opinions of the one in question. They are routinely so off base as to be fringe, and don't reflect any of my values or hashkafos

I just regret that her rude and judgement voice has a platform here, and that she has hurt people very deeply.
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amother




Orange


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:34 pm
Seas wrote:

When someone tells others they have done an aveiroh, it's solely because they're not at all ashamed of it. And that is the peak of chutzpah.


And as I have explained, it is possible to have a child before marriage without it being an aveira. I am not going to repost what I wrote before but examples include:

- If a person was assaulted
- If they were a Geress or a BT,
- If they got IUI permission from their LOR

then what they did before they were frum is not an aveira!

If someone ate shellfish as a non-Jew before becoming a Jew, they did nothing wrong. If they say "when I was a non-Jew I ate shellfish" they are stating a fact, not being Chutzpadik.

Similarly, when I was in [personal situation], I had a child before I was married. It's not bragging or chutzpadik, it's a fact. Oh and that child is now a bright, mischievous, Gemora Kop. Why on earth would I be ashamed of him or how he came about?
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amother




Orange


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:38 pm
Seas wrote:

As I wrote before, if in the past you would have done something you're terribly ashamed of, you wouldn't be broadcasting it. Even after doing tshuva.


Not necessarily. Sometimes people tell of their aveirot to educate others. I've heard several Rabbonim tell me of their wild childhoods before they were frum and a Rabbi. Such stories often work in a Kiruv way to help non-observant people feel like they can still be frum Jews.
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amother




Orange


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:49 pm
pesek zman wrote:
It sounds like she's suggesting that she lie to the world, child included, that the child was a product of a failed marriage (should the narrative be that the 'father' is deceased or did he simply abandon the child?) or possibly a regret from a former life. Imagine how this child would feel, thinking that his mom regretted him in any way. Or if he thought that's what his mom were telling everyone, in the name of not being 'chutzpahdik' to Gd


Yup, this is what I was supposed to do, pretend I had been divorced. I didn't. Furthermore, there are different halachot for a divorcee vs a woman who has had a child before marriage. From a technical halachic standpoint, a divorcee cannot marry a Cohen. A woman who has a baby without being married can, provided the father of that baby was halachically Jewish. Conversely, with IUI the donor would likely be a non-Jew and the woman would NOT be able to marry a Cohen. It's therefore extremely important for the truth to be known to avoid potential halachic issues.
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amother




Orange


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:51 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
In any case, OP, you just explain simply, and at the child's level.

Usually, you need a man and a woman to have a baby; and in our society, the man and the woman should be married. But sometimes, if a woman hasn't yet met her bashert, and really wants a baby, doctors can help her have one. Its a big decision for her to make. And that's what's happening here.


Yep this is a good explanation. If only you had responded to OP first, this thread might have already died out! Laughing
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sequoia









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 12:55 pm
My friend did IUI as a single woman, with the guidance of her Yekke rav. She was and is frum.
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debsey









  


Post  Wed, Oct 11 2017, 3:04 pm
OP asked a simple question, and many people gave her a simple answer. You say something along the lines of "there's a medical procedure that can put a baby in a mommy's tummy. That's what she did, since she wanted a baby." There doesn't have to be more detail - or more explanation than that.

How does the doctor do it? When you're older, if it's relevant, we can find out.

Why did she decide to do it? That's her business.

Won't the baby miss a Tatty? Sure, but lots of kids grow up without Tatties, and we know the baby will have a good mommy......

There's no need to overshare, and you can control the level of detail you give kids. Usually, kids are satisfied with simple, age appropriate explanation.

It's like that joke where the kid asks where he came from, and the mom prepares this whole explanation, and then the kid says "but Johnny in my class said he came from London. Where was I born?"

Don't overthink it.
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