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S/O secular college- Stern
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 3:30 pm
Agree. But thats the point. His degree is very real and very effective and useful eventhouugh hes never been to a brick or mortar college or never been on a college campus (unless you count BMG). And thats the basic difference in the hashkafas. Different communities hold differently how to get there and what purposes college serve. As I said, my husband and his friends hold college is just a springboard to earn a living, not for the experience or process in itself.
Many might argue that his degree is not valid enough because he didnt study literature or history in depth or whatever, just enough to pass the CLEP tests.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 3:33 pm
amother wrote:
It sounds like we are in different loops. I live in the United States. Those civil laws are pretty unhelpful when you cannot afford legal counsel and unemployment is high.


So you will make educational decisions for yourself and your children based on the premise that all, or at least the vast majority, of secular employers in the US blatantly violate federal law and discriminate against Jews. And, moreover, all, or virtually all, Jewish employers discriminate against people who receive degrees from YU or Stern. And, finally, people with degrees from YU and Stern will not be able to file a claim with the EEOC on their own.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 4:18 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employment discrimination based on religion. This includes refusing to accommodate an employee's sincerely held religious beliefs or practices unless the accommodation would impose an undue hardship (more than a minimal burden on operation of the business). See https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/news.....n.cfm

If your company refused to accommodate your need to leave work on Friday in time for Shabbat, or to take off chagim, then they were probably in violation of federal law.


I agree completely. I wish I knew more when I was 22.

Full disclosure (sort of given that I am anonymous LOL ) I am very MO when it comes to education. For many, including me, knowing what's out there strengthens my commitment to Torah. I also see how it can be disruptive. The main point I wanted to make was that I want to respect everyone's education decision-making process. (And the defensive point I wanted to make was to defend my crummy new college graduate job market experience. B"H, I have a job that is super accommodating now, but it didn't exist when I graduated.)
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 4:31 pm
amother wrote:
It sounds like we are in different loops. I live in the United States. Those civil laws are pretty unhelpful when you cannot afford legal counsel and unemployment is high.


Again one doesn't need an atny to file an EEOC complaint.

As to high unemployment, open another thread. I'm willing to discuss your claim without hijacking this thread.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 4:33 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I'm going to answer question #2, but just bear in mind that this is just MY answer, and I am not representing any sort of community... but this is how I understand it:

#2) - The principle of the difference between men and women's higher education is that men are encouraged, if at all possible, to stay in full time learning as long as they can. And they also feel that if you are learning, you should not be going to college at the same time, but focus exclusively on learning. For women, the issues are different, as women do not have an obligation of full time Torah learning, and many girls do get degrees from a kosher source once they finish seminary.

#3) - My chassidish friend thinks this is backwards, as she thinks that men should be working, and not the women. Her reasoning is that if anyone should be "out there" in the big wide world, it should be the men, not the women. I don't know if she represents all Chassidish women, though, as I do know quite a few Chassidish women who have gotten degrees.

BTW Kym, your dh did not do "fake" college. He has a very real degree.


These explanations still feel flimsy to me. So if a yeshivish man is trying a degree of any kind he won't learn at all while getting it? So it still feels like just not wanting to be associated with MO.

To address some other posts, there is no one type of stern girl. There's non religious, lwmo, jpf, rwmo and yeshivish. I have friends who married men learning in yeshivish yeshivas while going to stern or soon after.

Keym I'm more concerned about taking a shortcut through grad school than college and also don't understand how the btl counts a college degree.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 5:57 pm
amother smokey wrote:
These explanations still feel flimsy to me. So if a yeshivish man is trying a degree of any kind he won't learn at all while getting it? So it still feels like just not wanting to be associated with MO.
<snipped>


These are not excuses, these are reasons.

Can you please, without labeling or judging or commenting, list point by point your reading of what was presented here on several pages by several different posters? I'm at a loss as to how to present it any clearer unless I can see where the breakdown happened.

You don't have to like or agree with the reasons, but no one is trying to mislead you. The same answers have now been stated and re-stated and re-clarified.
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emhabanim




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 8:09 pm
amother wrote:
Unfortunately, the secular world doesn't care that you are Jewish. They don't care that sunset comes earlier on Friday. Your secular education doesn't matter if you are not willing to work the exact same hours as everyone else. Most of the other Jews they hire are not Torah observant; why can't you just be like them? That was my experience anyway. Sorry to sound so harsh Sad

I'm not saying that no one should go to Stern or NYU or Hogwarts. I just don't think we can fault the reasoning of anyone who picks a school based on the kind of employment opportunities they can expect to have when they graduate.


I know plenty of frum men and women employed in top tier firms in NYC that have no issue with leaving early on Friday and not working on Yom Tov or shabbos. They work in Goldman Sachs, Ernst and young , pwc, Morgan Stanley, Davis Polk, etc. In fact many top firms today view this as encouraging diversity and view it as a positive attribute.

As long as you work hard, are a team player, and if need be are willing to work late on Thursday or motzei shabbos leaving early on Friday in professional firms is usually not an issue.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 8:27 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Yes, it makes sense to me.

First, it's not a question of giving legitimacy to secular education. Everyone on my side of the fence understands that a superior secular education has value. It's giving legitimacy to secular studies as being EQUAL to Gemarah, etc. that is the problem.

To explain things on a different level, historically speaking, what YU has done is completely unprecedented in Jewish history. Higher institutions of Jewish learning have always existed, but they have always been pure Jewish learning, and nothing more. There has never been a yeshiva that mixed Gemarah with secular studies. So there is a very strong feeling of suspicion of anything that will "dilute" pure Jewish studies. In the past two hundred years, there were many schools that were attempted in Europe and in Israel (the Alliance), with disastrous results, at least from a frumkeit perspective.

Another issue is that many of the Roshei Yeshiva (not all) were against college, altogether. Some Roshei Yeshiva were ok with this on an individual case by case basis, but felt that most people should not go to college, for various reasons. They were against any college, whether secular or not.

I don't know if this answers some of your questions, and I would be glad to answer any other questions, to the best of my ability.


At YU at least when we were there it was very clear to the serious boys hat the Yeshiva was more important. They woke up for minyan at eight and aside from a quick lunch break we're in shiur or Seder until three pm. Every day except shabbos and Friday which had a different schedule. They then took two to here hours of secular studies on Monday thru Thursday. After dinner they returned for night Seder. They had no two to three hour mid day break between sedarim which yeshivas do have.

Yes not all YU boys did this. But not all boys in yeshivish places are really learning. Many are there because of social peer pressure. The boys in YU made a choice to have no break and to learn and go to school and it was clear they spent much more time learning.

We like to believe most Roshei Yeshiva were against college but the truth is that in he 1950's and 60's most Yeshiva boys in Brooklyn went. Over time it became " not done".

You can choose to go or not go. It's a personal choice. But to convince young kids that a degree doesn't open doors or offer the potential for greater financial security is unfair and a fallacy. Aside from leading to economic difficulty it creates an anger against the frum world in people when they hit their 30's.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 8:33 pm
cbsp wrote:
These are not excuses, these are reasons.

Can you please, without labeling or judging or commenting, list point by point your reading of what was presented here on several pages by several different posters? I'm at a loss as to how to present it any clearer unless I can see where the breakdown happened.

You don't have to like or agree with the reasons, but no one is trying to mislead you. The same answers have now been stated and re-stated and re-clarified.


I quoted mommyg8's post specifically because she said "And they also feel that if you are learning, you should not be going to college at the same time, but focus exclusively on learning."

So I asked, do yeshivish men really not learn at all while they are in college? If they are learning while they are in college too, how is it different? And if someone is going to college, isn't it better to do so in an environment surrounded by mostly frum people, kosher food in the cafeteria, shiurim and programming for the holidays, and time off the the chagim? I'm not only speaking the ultra yeshivish here, but regular jpf or yeshivish people who shun YU over real secular colleges.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 9:06 pm
amother wrote:
These explanations still feel flimsy to me. So if a yeshivish man is trying a degree of any kind he won't learn at all while getting it? So it still feels like just not wanting to be associated with MO.


These explanations seem flimsy to you? There are thousands of young men who are following this system. Do you have an alternative explanation that makes more sense to you?

I tried to explain the reasoning behind it, and I made clear in an earlier post, that I am NOT making any judgements about right or wrong. Everyone does what they feel is right, and I respect that. I am explaining SOME of the reasoning behind what they do.

Again, yes, it is our value system to only learn Torah during the time that they are in yeshiva, and not to learn secular studies during that time. Does everyone in the yeshiva system learn 24 hours a day? Is everyone perfect? Obviously, not everyone does everything they are supposed to be doing, I'm sure that the people in charge of the Yeshivos wish they had a magic wand to make everyone follow all the rules, all the time! But there are plenty of boys who do learn straight through the day, and they learn very seriously. I know them - they are my sons, my friends sons, my neighbors sons.

And the BTL is a very valid degree. True, there is not much you can do with it, on it's own, but it CAN get you into graduate school!

Quote:
quoted mommyg8's post specifically because she said "And they also feel that if you are learning, you should not be going to college at the same time, but focus exclusively on learning."

So asked, do yeshivish men really not learn at all while they are in college? If they are learning while they are in college too, how is it different? And if someone is going to college, isn't it better to do so in an environment surrounded by mostly frum people, kosher food in the cafeteria, shiurim and programming for the holidays, and time off the the chagim? 'm not only speaking the ultra yeshivish here, but regular jpf or yeshivish people who shun YU over real secular colleges.


In the Yeshivish system, the boys learn full time for a good five years after they leave high school. So that by the time they decide to go to college - it that is their goal - it is very parnassah oriented, with the goal to do this as quickly as possible. At that point it is irrelevant if they are able to learn while they are in college, just as it is irrelevant if someone has a huge amount of time to learn while they are working (most people today don't). And like I mentioned earlier, very few Yeshivish men actually do go to college. And if they do - why would they pick YU over a college that is more prestigious?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 9:13 pm
amother wrote:
They had no two to three hour mid day break between sedarim which yeshivas do have.


The yeshiva system has a very rigorous schedule. I know that each yeshiva has a different schedule, but I'm not yet aware of a serious yeshiva that has a two-three hour break.

As for the Rosh Yeshivos being pro college in the 1950's and 1960's - no. Just no. Ner Yisroel boys went to college, and still do, but other yeshivos were definitely against it. R' Moshe, R' Yaakov, and of course, R' Aharon. My own father made a choice in 1968 to continue learning full time, as did many of my friend's fathers as well. They never did get a degree, even though some of them were offered full scholarships.

Obviously, different people did different things, but if you are talking about the very RW Rosh Yeshivos, they were definitely not pro college.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 10:25 pm
amother smokey wrote:
I quoted mommyg8's post specifically because she said "And they also feel that if you are learning, you should not be going to college at the same time, but focus exclusively on learning."

So I asked, do yeshivish men really not learn at all while they are in college? If they are learning while they are in college too, how is it different? And if someone is going to college, isn't it better to do so in an environment surrounded by mostly frum people, kosher food in the cafeteria, shiurim and programming for the holidays, and time off the the chagim? I'm not only speaking the ultra yeshivish here, but regular jpf or yeshivish people who shun YU over real secular colleges.


No. They believe the answer is no. The existence of an institution that houses equally Torah and all other education is an anathema.

It is not a judgement on the individuals who attend and adhere to that derech, it's not saying they're not religious or shtark or whatever other wonderful qualities they have that were enumerated above. But they are on a different derech than the classic Yeshivish path.

And for all your protests, you seem to be quite unaccepting of the yeshivish world's right to follow a derech that fits their worldview best.


I'm not sure exactly what "ultra" yeshivish as opposed to "regular" yeshivish is so I can't address that line.
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Mon, Oct 16 2017, 10:31 pm
cbsp wrote:
No. They believe the answer is no. The existence of an institution that houses equally Torah and all other education is an anathema.

It is not a judgement on the individuals who attend and adhere to that derech, it's not saying they're not religious or shtark or whatever other wonderful qualities they have that were enumerated above. But they are on a different derech than the classic Yeshivish path.

And for all your protests, you seem to be quite unaccepting of the yeshivish world's right to follow a derech that fits their worldview best.


I'm not sure exactly what "ultra" yeshivish as opposed to "regular" yeshivish is so I can't address that line.


Of course it's a judgement. It's saying that the approach of YU is outside the pale of acceptable Judaism. I'd rather daven beyechidus than join in your minyan is pretty clear, no?

Given that both Chassidus and the current yeshivish path are recent innovations, there's a certain hypocrisy here as well.

As my kids say, the haters gonna hate. Nothing we can do.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 17 2017, 6:22 am
amother wrote:
Of course it's a judgement. It's saying that the approach of YU is outside the pale of acceptable Judaism. I'd rather daven beyechidus than join in your minyan is pretty clear, no?

Given that both Chassidus and the current yeshivish path are recent innovations, there's a certain hypocrisy here as well.

As my kids say, the haters gonna hate. Nothing we can do.


The current yeshiva path is NOT a recent innovation.

What do you call the yeshivos of Sura and Pumpedisa, 24,000 talmidim of R' Akiva, just to mention off the top of my head?
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Tue, Oct 17 2017, 9:20 am
emhabanim wrote:
I know plenty of frum men and women employed in top tier firms in NYC that have no issue with leaving early on Friday and not working on Yom Tov or shabbos. They work in Goldman Sachs, Ernst and young , pwc, Morgan Stanley, Davis Polk, etc. In fact many top firms today view this as encouraging diversity and view it as a positive attribute.

As long as you work hard, are a team player, and if need be are willing to work late on Thursday or motzei shabbos leaving early on Friday in professional firms is usually not an issue.


I am glad your experience has been so positive. If I had known plenty of frum men and women employed in top tier firms, I am sure I would have had a more positive experience too.
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