How to (or not to) give mussar

Boca00

Wed, Oct 18 2017, 4:46 pm

I usually just don't because I am hesitant to embarrass someone or that it will backfire. But sometimes it really is important to say something, like when a friend persistently badmouths a good, frum doctor or other professional.

Have you ever given/gotten mussar that was effective? Any does/don'ts to share?

iyar

Wed, Oct 18 2017, 6:37 pm

A woman once stopped me in the grocery while I was choosing fruits and vegetables and told me that the slit in my skirt was too high. She took a real risk. She was dressed in a very tzniusdug manner, sheitel almost all covered, extra thick beige stockings, and I don't dress that way. She probably guessed from the way I looked that a slit that big was not my style, but still, who knows? She was extremely polite and spoke quietly and hesitantly. She actually looked a little nervous as if maybe I'd throw a tomato at her. Lucky her and lucky me! I thanked her. It was a new skirt, I hadn't noticed the slit, I took care of it, and I was so happy she told me. This was a few years ago though and I have never since approached a stranger and told them they weren't dressed properly. I'd never say anything to someone I actually know either, though I know some women who go way beyond ignoring chumras all the way into the realm of dressing in a manner that is not allowed.
Giving mussar takes finesse, polish, kindness, bravery, a strong stomach, eidelkeit, and determination all rolled into one package.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Oct 18 2017, 7:27 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Just wondering about the example you gave. If the doctor is "good" as you describe, then it's not really necessary to give mussar. Why not just argue why you feel the doctor is reliable and good? As a general rule, I don't think it is my place to give mussar to anyone other then my kids and maybe my husband. I don't correct neighbors, people in shul, or anyone else. People are sensitive and unlikely to be receptive to mussar if it's coming from a "regular" person like me.
Who do you feel deserves mussar and why do you think it's your place to give it?

amother

Babypink

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 2:29 pm

Boca00 wrote:

I think the bolded is key. You have to be 100% certain that it is important to say something. Lots of times people get hurt because something doesn't actually need to be said. Even in your example I was thinking "so what" that someone may persistently badmouth a professional. In her experience, maybe she found that professional to be bad, she's entitled to her opinion. If you look at any online reviews, including for doctors and lawyers, you'll see mixed opinions about the same person and the same product in product reviews. In the scenario you give, I would argue it is NOT really important for you to say something.

In my opinion, giving mussar is best given when the person asks for it. So if they say "how may I improve on..." it is totally fine to give mussar. Going up to someone and giving them Mussar can indeed lead to embarrassment and/or it backfiring so IMHO I say don't bother. Let the person seek out the mussar themselves.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 2:35 pm

Boca00 wrote:

I have been to this professional too and I know he's considered very good in his field. She was going on and on to a group of people about something that happened to her where she felt he was being difficult and he said something she didn't like. I couldn't really argue with her feelings nor did I want to. I turned around and walked away. Later, I called a Rabbi and was told next time I should say something, in a way that doesn't embarrass her. She is very sensitive so I'm not sure how I could go about this without embarrassing her...

If you sought Rabbinical advice, why on earth are you asking the same shaila to a group of IMAs? My own doctor has lots of negative reviews online but I couldn't care less because I've had no negative experiences with that doctor. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if someone else said something negative about them and I would treat their opinion and experience as valid. Just because someone is frum and a professional that doesn't make them immune to getting criticism.

The Rabbi likely said you should say something because she was doing LH. But what you already were doing (turning around and walking away) is an excellent response to LH. I think it perfectly acceptable to say you don't want to listen to LH next time she speaks but I don't think your friend needs mussar because she has an opinion about a frum professional. You are entitled to not listen to LH and tell her that though, I don't consider that Mussar but a friendly reminder which we all need from time to time re: LH.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 2:45 pm

Boca00 wrote:

What Burlywood says 100%.

Boca00

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 3:20 pm

amother wrote:

Why I thought it would be important to say something is because she was totally saying LH not ltoeles and turning people off from seeing him, for no good reason. Its not like anyone asked her "I'm thinking of seeing this doc, what can you tell me?". That would be different.

In any case, like I said, that was just one example. I wanted to hear more about what mussar (if any) was ever received well. But other than the first poster, it doesn't sound like much... I guess it really is a hard balance to strike.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 3:43 pm

Boca00 wrote:

To clarify- I was NOT asking a shaila here. Like you said, I already asked a Rav. My question was HOW to say something, which he did not tell me. Anyways, really my question was not that either. It was a general question about giving mussar, that was just one example.

Ok so I stand by what I said originally to answer your Q directly: don't give Mussar unless someone asks for it. I know someone who loves receiving mussar and goes to a couple of rabbonim/mussar shiurim specifically to ask. If someone doesn't ask, they usually probably don't want the mussar (with rare exceptions like the poster with the accidental split in her skirt).

Boca00

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 3:52 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks! This is what I wanted to hear lol. I believe there is a mitzvah not to give mussar if someone won't listen to it. And it sounds like from the responses that most people won't be open to it.