Are these gadol stories true?

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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watergirl

Thu, Oct 19 2017, 10:19 pm

amother wrote:

I remember this vaguely. Why was it put in cherem??

Because it talks about the rabbis when they were just people. One lf the rabbis in the book wrote his wife love letters. One was a sore loser at sports. Real humans. For me, it makes them real and more relatable. Apprently its disrespectful.

amother

Azure

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 12:56 am

watergirl wrote:

ITA. I loved that email that was going around after Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel was niftar with a pic of his yearbook page...

amother

Denim

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 8:18 am

I was very into these kinds of stories as a teenager. I knew on some level that not everything in them was true, but that wasn't why I was into them. I am very much not a spiritual person by nature and very much wanted to be. I just wanted to be able to see yad hashem in MY world, to be able to know that there are people who can see beyond the physicality in the world. It was hard for me to imagine open miracles like in tanach relating to me life, but it was easier to hear stories about people living in the few hundred years or more recently who did things that were just a step above the normal physical way of things. I couldn't imagine being like Moshe Rabbeinu or Avraham Avinu. But I could imagine trying to focus on the spiritual instead of the physical like stories of the Ba'al Shem Tov or the Chafetz Chaim, etc. That doesn't mean I was ready to spend my life in the forest or never say a word without complete intention. It just meant that it seemed more relatable - that they could focus so much on their ruchniyus, neshama, and mitzvos. That's what I was striving for, and I didn't feel like the people in my day to day life had a enough of it. It was so refreshing for me to see that it was out there on some level - even if the stories were insanely exaggerated, or not true, that the person who it is told about must have been on a very high madrega for people to find these stories believable in general. It was a comfort to me. Like I could get there too in my own way.

As I got older and matured, I found myself becoming more and more skeptical about these things, but I lost something along with that. I lost a certain pure innocent belief that there is more I could strive for, more I could achieve, more I could be in touch with beyond my own little self. I wish I could go back sometimes. . .

As long as your son is just interested in these stories, and not copying them, you don't need to burst your son's bubble - he is old enough to think things through by himself and come to conclusions on his own. If he is into this stuff, it is obviously inspirational for him in his ruchniyus and is needed by him. But if you see your son starts to imitate significant behaviors from these stories, and it is out of place, then it's time to have a talk with him. But if he's just getting inspiration, that's what these stories are here for. If you want to get a better idea of what he is getting out of them, you can always ask which parts of the story he connects with, or what he liked about it. He may be happy to share, though if he isn't, it is probably something very personal and you shouldn't push it. Let him keep his sense of wonder for a while - he is old enough to think this out his own way, and will make further decisions about what he thinks about these stories as he matures further.

amother

Yellow

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 8:41 am

amother wrote:

ITA. I loved that email that was going around after Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel was niftar with a pic of his yearbook page...

Yes! We went to the same high school (thats why I am anon). And he played basketball for the school’s team!! So did Rabbi Berel Wein.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 9:17 am

amother wrote:

Obviously I was not around him 24/7 but I was around a lot. Also the issue of "gedolim stories" is one we in my family discussed on many occasions, and as I said, he was not happy about them and felt they did the opposite of inspire because they set up an ideal for kids that being a godol is some sort of super-human thing, rather than something which is within the reach of all of us. His REAL talmidim (not the people who learned by him for a zman or less, but the talmidim with whom he had longterm contact), would say the same. I am sorry that this disappoints you. As to how he benched lulav, it was on my mind because I wrote that original post right after sukos but he did it like he did everything -- with full concentration and kavanah. He was fully present in every mitzvah he did. I remember when one of my kids was little she once said something to my dh about how Zaide washed for hamotzi, which he also did very carefully and deliberately, and dh said "you can learn everything you need to know about yiras shomayim from how Zaide washes." Again -- this was not a dramatic thing,with special knayches, just a mindset and an awareness of Hashem. And it didn't not preclude his enjoying chocolate cake, playing with the kids, or any other normal human activity. Baruch HaShem gedolim are just people.

Ah. But kavanah that "I now have the opportunity to do the beautiful mitzvah of lulav and esrog and will focus on fulfilling it properly" maybe along with some thoughts about what the lulav and esrog represent, or along with deep metaphysical yichudim?

Obviously I don't mean to reduce a great person's kavanah but do you see the difference?

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 9:25 am

amother wrote:

ITA. I loved that email that was going around after Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel was niftar with a pic of his yearbook page...

It's in the Artscroll biographies.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 9:28 am

amother wrote:

Yes! We went to the same high school (thats why I am anon). And he played basketball for the school’s team!! So did Rabbi Berel Wein.

And Rav Aharon Feldman, shlita, was captain of his school's basketball team. (I'll edit this if anyone wants me to.) I've also heard that while there were many people in chinuch who shouldn't have been there in certain times and places, both Rabbi Wein and Rabbi Feldman had some exceptional rebbeim. (I don't know if Rav Mendel Kaplan, zt"l was still there in Rav Nosson Tzvi zt"l's time.)

Chayalle

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 9:31 am

amother wrote:

Chayalleh -Can I share the R' Sonnenfeld story with my son and all the other stories everyone has posted showing that Gedolim are people too.

She didn't tell it to me privately, or I wouldn't have posted it online. So I don't think it's a secret.

watergirl

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 9:32 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Why should you edit that? Thats the problem! These gedolim were real people, who didnreal things. Why are people wanting to edit history?

Chayalle

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 9:39 am

I actually think when I hear normal stories about Gedolim, that it shows that a normal person can become great. That inspires me more!

Seas

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 10:30 am

amother wrote:

ITA. I loved that email that was going around after Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel was niftar with a pic of his yearbook page...

IMO that's a bizayon for this great talmid chacham. Sports is an unfortunate byproduct of us being in galus amongst the [gentiles], and, if not an explicit aveirah, is certainly not in line with ratzon Hashem.

Sending around that picture is no different than reminding a BT of the aveiros they committed before doing tshuva.

It's one thing to explain that the gedolei Yisroel weren't born free from taivah and Yetzer Hora, but they had to work hard to attain the level they did. And it's totally something else to actually show and celebrate parts of their childhood that were unfortunately goish, before they became so exalted and close to Hashem.

The lesson in general is not that they are human beings 'after all', but that they were human beings before all. We admire and are inspired - and hopefully wish to emulate - the fact that a human being, born from flesh and blood parents, can rise to such greatness to become close to Hashem.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 10:38 am

watergirl wrote:

Why should you edit that? Thats the problem! These gedolim were real people, who didnreal things. Why are people wanting to edit history?

Idk, if a relative were to pm me I'd say I disagree but that I would respect her request and hope she reevaluates. That's all.
At this point I think it's too late ;-)

imasoftov

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 10:42 am

Seas wrote:

Sports is an unfortunate byproduct of us being in galus amongst the [gentiles], and, if not an explicit aveirah, is certainly not in line with ratzon Hashem.

I'm curious which explicit aveirah you think it might be.

leah233

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 10:43 am

Seas wrote:

Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel himself would tell people about his basketball expertise in his Chicago days.

Explain why sports are not in line with Ratzon Hasem? Exercise is a mitzvah.

And please explain how you can believe that sports aren't in line with Ratzon Hasem but Imamother is. There certainly is a lot more issue with the latter.

Last edited by leah233 on Fri, Oct 20 2017, 11:51 am; edited 3 times in total

watergirl

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 10:44 am

Seas wrote:

How daft to claim that you know what is and is not ratzon Hashem.

amother

Wheat

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 10:46 am

Seas- I kindly disagree with you- I can now tell me son- these Gedolim and their Rabbeim believed in exercise and keeping their growing bodies healthy. They all went to excellent schools and if it was an "aveira or bitul zman" the Rebbeim would not have let them have the sports teams.
MY son older son recently went to the orthopedist because his back was hurting. The doctor took one look at his back as proclaimed, "you have gemarah back!" he told he exercises he need to do to counteract the suffering he was having from leaning over a gemarah 6 hours a day.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 10:56 am

Seas wrote:

I'm not so sure. We have to be normal. (Isn't that the Rav Scheinberg, zt"l, story, where he told someone to Just. Be. Normal.?)

So many thoughts:
1. Our kids play sports differently. I remember this beautiful moment from when my kids were in our local summer baseball program, which included kids from all through the community. This was in one of the younger groups. The coach (who I don't know personally, he goes to YI, is MO) who also served as pitcher had the ball and could easily have thrown it to base to get a kid out but instead he did a 360, faltered for a moment, then threw it to the base just after the kid made it. Sure, by 7th, 8th grade the boys (girls play too, this was a boys team) wouldn't stand for that, but inside, they KNOW. They know the story of Shai, and run Shai run. They may not always act the way they should but they know what's real.

I once had to retrieve something left by one of my kids in a local park and there was a baseball game going. This was not a Jewish league but you could see, in the kids, the parents, they were out for blood. Some may have had big dreams. All I could think was, b"H, this is not how my kids play.

2. This just negates the gadlus of the generation of Rav Nosson Tzvi's parents. His mother, shetichye, is between my father and grandfather. My grandfather's generation was the one that quite work every week, that decorated the succah with pink slips (I know one such family, am not related). My father's generation didn't take things for granted but the way was paved. I suspect that Rebbetzin Finkel and her husband may have had things a little easier than my grandparents but in many ways had more in common with that generation than the next. That that generation raised not only shomer Shabbos children but children with a drive and joy in their Yiddishkeit needs to be honored. And that generation had a tool that their parents didn't: partners in formal chinuch in all day, vs. after school, yeshiva day school. So many of the people involved in the schools did their jobs so admirable. That we are here is in such large part thanks to them.

I'm sure I'll have more to say, but I'll stop here.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 11:00 am

amother wrote:

Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, zt"l, learned to bike at an advanced age for exercise (so I've heard). I know other talmidei chachamim who exercise. Ah, you can say it's not competitive sports. As I said, our boys play differently. They play to exercise and work off energy, not to perfect their skills with an eye on a career.

Chayalle

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 11:05 am

Seas I disagree with what you wrote, except for your last paragraph, which is very well said.

I think that everything that R' Nosson Tzvi was known and admired for was based on his very solid, very normal upbringing. I think his home, his school, his parents, and his experiences all contributed to the makings of this very remarkable Gadol.

I once heard a beautiful vort from Rabbi Frand, on what makes a Gadol. He said we use this Lashon at a bris - we say Zeh Hakatan Gadol Yiyeh. Where do we see the word Gadol in the Torah? By Moshe Rabeinu - it says "Vayigdal Hayeled Vayeitzi El Achiv" - the shoresh of Gadol is used to describe Moshe Rabeinu going out to see what his brothers were going thru in Mitzrayim, and caring about them. That is what demonstrates Gadlus - not being wrapped up in the affairs of the palace, but rather, caring about the downtrodden.

I think when a Gadol is raised to be captain of a team, he has the experience of caring for others and sportsmanship. Also he was raised by parents who were exceptional Baalei Middos. These lessons enhanced his Torah learning and made him a Gadol - his caring extraordinaire to every human being.

I remember going in to him with DH when we were newly married and visiting E"Y. I remember his amazing focus, asking us what our needs are and blessing us with success. His warmth, especially to his Talmidim (DH was privileged to consider himself such) was legendary (in the huge Mir Yeshiva, on DH's first day, R' Nosson Tzvi put his arm around DH and told him that he is family, since his grandparents were from Mir. I'm sure others were told they were family for some other reason. All to make a young bachur who was homesick and across the ocean from his family, feel welcome and special).

These are the types of stories to share with our sons (you can tell him, OP). Tell them that middos is what will build them into Gedolim - not lack of sleep or unhealthy abstinence or lack of exercise....

watergirl

Fri, Oct 20 2017, 11:07 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Not only that. When we take somethjng perfectly kosher and say it maybe an eveirah and is not ratzon Hashem, then we leave them with nothing. Nothing other than learning. Well, thats not enough for everyone. And when we take away kosher activities, kids are left with truly unkosher ones. Also, they wont know the difference between ok and literally assur. We see this all the time. People dont know that there is a middle ground of acceptable, yet not extreme, hashkafic way to live. Extreme stops making sense for someone and they go totally off because theyve always learned that kosher middle ground is as assur as chazer.

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