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Are all Ashkenazi Jews descendants of Yiddish
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:10 pm
I'm sorry there is no language called "lashon hakodesh" that is distinctive from modern Hebrew. Yes spoken Hebrew has evolved and some very minor rules if grammer have changed as generations have passed. But modern Hebrew is not a language "invented" by secular Jews. How ridiculous. My seven year old can open up a chumash and understand almost every word. Yes some words and usages are not very common today but absolutely it's the same language.
My kids can open the Rambam or the more modern Mishna Brura and understand every word, because it's the same language. The word for computer or elevator may not have existed in the days of the tanach but new words have been encouraged into the language since forever.
The distinction between "lashon hakodesh" and Hebrew is only in the eyes of people who are not fortunate enough to be native speakers.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:13 pm
chanchy123 wrote:
I'm sorry there is no language called "lashon hakodesh" that is distinctive from modern Hebrew. Yes spoken Hebrew has evolved and some very minor rules if grammer have changed as generations have passed. But modern Hebrew is not a language "invented" by secular Jews. How ridiculous. My seven year old can open up a chumash and understand almost every word. Yes some words and usages are not very common today but absolutely it's the same language.
My kids can open the Rambam or the more modern Mishna Brura and understand every word, because it's the same language. The word for computer or elevator may not have existed in the days of the tanach but new words have been encouraged into the language since forever.
The distinction between "lashon hakodesh" and Hebrew is only in the eyes of people who are not fortunate enough to be native speakers.


Um, what are you talking about????
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amother
Wine


 

Post Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:16 pm
Take the yesod malchus siddurim. With interlinear translation under each word from lashon hakodesh to modern hebrew. There's a market for them. And all of them are 'native hebrew speakers'.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:22 pm
amother wrote:
Take the yesod malchus siddurim. With interlinear translation under each word from lashon hakodesh to modern hebrew. There's a market for them. And all of them are 'native hebrew speakers'.


Just like there are Cliff notes on Shakespeare.
Many people have a hard time following literary (or liturgucal) texts, especially those that are from an earlier period, and need them elucidated into more everyday language. Does that indicate that Shakespeare wrote in any language other than English?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:23 pm
etky wrote:
Just like there are Cliff notes on Shakespeare.
Many people have a hard time following literary (or liturgucal) texts, especially those that are from an earlier period, and need them elucidated into more everyday language. Does that indicate that Shakespeare wrote in any language other than English?


I think that if you would try talking "Shakespeare" in your local Wal-Mart, you may get some funny looks. English evolved, but how did Hebrew evolve? Of course, it was created.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:28 pm
etky wrote:
Just like there are Cliff notes on Shakespeare.
Many people have a hard time following literary (or liturgucal) texts, especially those that are from an earlier period, and need them elucidated into more everyday language. Does that indicate that Shakespeare wrote in any language other than English?


There is a difference between notes and translation. I'm referring to clear translation under each word.

Look, no one is arguing that the languages are similar. It's just that once the language has changed then it isn't kadosh anymore, it's lost its purity. It's not the same language when it has been changed to go with modern day sensibilities. It's no longer the language that the Torah was given in, no longer the language that was used for nevuah etc.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:41 pm
[quote="Mommyg8"]I think that if you would try talking "Shakespeare" in your local Wal-Mart, you may get some funny looks. English evolved, but how did Hebrew evolve? Of course, it was created.[/quote

The point is that the fact that a language is not identical to the form it took centuries ago does not establish it as a separate lingusitic entity. No one is claiming that today's English is no longer English because it has evolved since Elizabethan times.
In the same way, spoken Hebrew is still Hebrew even if some modern speakers stand to benefit from an elucidated siddur.
And no, Hebrew was not 'created'. It too evolved albeit in untypical fashion since for generations it had ceased to be a spoken language.
When revived as a spoken language it had to be updated for modern use and it was - based largely on lashon chachamim of the Mishnaic period, which itself had evolved from biblical Hebrew.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:48 pm
[quote="etky"]
Mommyg8 wrote:
I think that if you would try talking "Shakespeare" in your local Wal-Mart, you may get some funny looks. English evolved, but how did Hebrew evolve? Of course, it was created.[/quote

The point is that the fact that a language is not identical to the form it took centuries ago does not establish it as a separate lingusitic entity. No one is claiming that today's English is no longer English because it has evolved since Elizabethan times.
In the same way, spoken Hebrew is still Hebrew even if some modern speakers stand to benefit from an elucidated siddur.
And no, Hebrew was not 'created'. It too evolved albeit in untypical fashion since for generations it had ceased to be a spoken language.
When revived as a spoken language it had to be updated for modern use and it was - based largely on lashon chachamim of the Mishnaic period, which itself had evolved from biblical Hebrew.


I think that the English that Shakespeare uses is called "old English". Most of us would not understand it if it were spoken today (except for the few Shakespeare scholars).

In any case, Loshon Hakodosh is not just some random language that evolved. Loshon Hakodesh is holy in a way that modern Hebrew is not.

In what way do you see that Hebrew evolved? Between the writing of Mishnayos and the modern state of Israel I think that there are almost two thousand years. That's a large gap.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 1:11 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I think that the English that Shakespeare uses is called "old English". Most of us would not understand it if it were spoken today (except for the few Shakespeare scholars).

In any case, Loshon Hakodosh is not just some random language that evolved. Loshon Hakodesh is holy in a way that modern Hebrew is not.

In what way do you see that Hebrew evolved? Between the writing of Mishnayos and the modern state of Israel I think that there are almost two thousand years. That's a large gap.


No, Shakespeare is not Old English. Old English is Beowulf. Try reading even a word of that...
Even Chaucer, the 'Father of English Literature', writing in Middle English, has to be read in line by line translation.
Shakespeare is early Modern English and yet 'translations' into contemporary, non-literary English still exist for the benefit of the modern reader.
Indeed two thousand years is a long time but Hebrew was not entirely dormant during that time. It flourished and evolved as a written language for sacred and later -from the Haskala onwards - for secular texts as well before its revival as a spoken language.
I think it's intellectually dishonest and even ludicrous to attempt to create an aritifical dichotomy between spoken modern Hebrew and the Hebrew used throughout Jewish history for sacred and liturgical texts, to support an ideological position.
Even a superficial perusal of the siddur reveals a much greater affinity with modern spoken Hebrew than with the Hebrew of tanach (not including the passages excerpted from tanach of course), which itself is so much more closely related to modern Hebrew than other modern languages are to their ancient predecessors .
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 2:00 am
amother wrote:

Look, no one is arguing that the languages are similar. It's just that once the language has changed then it isn't kadosh anymore, it's lost its purity. It's not the same language when it has been changed to go with modern day sensibilities. It's no longer the language that the Torah was given in, no longer the language that was used for nevuah etc.


For the most part, we only preserved the holy uses of ancient Hebrew, because that's what was important to us. But you'd better believe that in the times of Tanach and beyond, Jews used Hebrew words to discuss mundane life. Jews living 2500 years ago used a vocabulary which has been lost to us. Children played games in Hebrew, couples argued in Hebrew, patients told their doctors about repulsive digestive issues in Hebrew, but we haven't preserved their vocabulary.

Just because we only had part of a language (even if it's the crucial part for religious life) doesn't change the fact that the language was a full, functional language that encompassed the spectrum of human experience. We lose out by reducing Hebrew to a fraction of itself.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 2:11 am
chanchy123 wrote:
I'm sorry there is no language called "lashon hakodesh" that is distinctive from modern Hebrew. Yes spoken Hebrew has evolved and some very minor rules if grammer have changed as generations have passed. But modern Hebrew is not a language "invented" by secular Jews. How ridiculous. My seven year old can open up a chumash and understand almost every word. Yes some words and usages are not very common today but absolutely it's the same language.
My kids can open the Rambam or the more modern Mishna Brura and understand every word, because it's the same language. The word for computer or elevator may not have existed in the days of the tanach but new words have been encouraged into the language since forever.
The distinction between "lashon hakodesh" and Hebrew is only in the eyes of people who are not fortunate enough to be native speakers.


Calm down. Why is this ridiculous? Do you know how modern Hebrew was 'invented'?
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 2:14 am
amother wrote:
Calm down. Why is this ridiculous? Do you know how modern Hebrew was 'invented'?


Not invented, revived. As Cecil Roth said, "Before Ben-Yehuda, Jews could speak Hebrew; after him, they did."
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 2:19 am
heidi wrote:
As far as I understand,Yiddish was the language the Jews used so the non jews in galut wouldn't understand them. Not sure what makes it holy.
I actually find it ironic when Israeli parents think it's better for their children to learn Torah in the language of galut than in Lashon Hakodesh.


That's not the reason Yiddish was created.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 24 2017, 4:04 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I think that the English that Shakespeare uses is called "old English".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....glish
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