Alternative name for Avos Ubanim

Chayalle

Fri, Nov 17 2017, 11:55 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I know a school that used to have a "Mothers and Daughters Dinner" that is now called "Shalsheles." It could be that the few girls did feel weird that it was because of them, but future years probably thanked them.

The school my girls go to hosts a mother/daughter lunch every year for fifth graders. I know that one year there was one girl (out of like 200!) in the grade that did not have a mother. They did not do the event that year.

I agree, there's no such thing as too much sensitivity.

There are fathers that have no sons either BTW (like my DH). He often learns with boys who for whatever reason can't learn with their fathers, or need extra help/TLC. I like the "Kol Hanearim" title - it works for everyone.

debsey

Fri, Nov 17 2017, 12:30 pm

Chayalle wrote:

See, I don't think this is that. Renaming it isn't too much sensitivity. Cancelling it completely is. (In other words, I think there is such a thing as too much sensitivity.)

Renaming is common sense. Cancelling a yearly event just means that this girl will feel even more singled out. She is likely to think: I don't have a mother. And I'm the cause for this event to be cancelled. It definitely doesn't shield her. It may make the teachers feel less awkward, but it doesn't help the kid.

amother

Bisque

Fri, Nov 17 2017, 1:12 pm

I agree with why not be more sensitive, it can only be a good thing I'm just wondering what changed now, that someone realized the name could be more sensitive, it's not a new issue that some kids don't have fathers and avos ubanim has been around for some time already? Just curious.

edited: decided the fact that my father died isn't relevant. Im really just curious what made someone come to this decision

Chayalle

Fri, Nov 17 2017, 2:40 pm

debsey wrote:

Renaming is common sense. Cancelling a yearly event just means that this girl will feel even more singled out. She is likely to think: I don't have a mother. And I'm the cause for this event to be cancelled. It definitely doesn't shield her. It may make the teachers feel less awkward, but it doesn't help the kid.

They didn't cancel it - they just never started it that year to begin with, and said something about technical difficulties, and did some other kind of event just for the girls....I just happen to know from behind the scenes that that was the reason. But the girls didn't know it, and they are young enough not to figure it out.

amother

Violet

Fri, Nov 17 2017, 2:54 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with why not be more sensitive, it can only be a good thing I'm just wondering what changed now, that someone realized the name could be more sensitive, it's not a new issue that some kids don't have fathers and avos ubanim has been around for some time already? Just curious.
signed,
someone who's father died before she was in first grade.

My father died right before I finished kindergarten. I started first grade in the late eighties, and even back then my teachers were prepared to give me an alternate project when we made Father's Day projects- so I wouldn't feel left out. When I was in high school, my principal made sure that I didn't have yahrzeit on important occasions- like our end of year dinner and graduation.

LovesHashem

Sat, Nov 18 2017, 10:32 am

Gitch wrote:

Is it embarrassing for the boys if we change the name? Meaning, they know it was changed because of them?

If it was changed for a specific boy, perhaps. But the name change will undoubtedly help many more boys in the future feel more comfortable.

LovesHashem

Sat, Nov 18 2017, 10:35 am

debsey wrote:

Agreed. The girl should been allowed to bring whatever female relative or person she felt to her was a mother figure if she wished to, her teachers should of spoke to her that it's about the idea of a mother, and she should of been allowed to bring a sister, grandmother, or neighbor she felt comfortable bringing. Of course, only if she wanted to

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Nov 18 2017, 1:30 pm

In my yishuv its called "yesh torah, yesh pizza"and anyone can come learn. My husband goes with our daughter. She loves that time with him.
But there are kids who come with siblings, or mothers with sons. Any mix works.
I never liked the avot ubanim name. 2 reasons. One, why not let the daughters learn with their fathers too? And why not let mothers learn with the children too? Much better now when its whoever wants to learn.

RebekahsMom

Sat, Nov 18 2017, 5:03 pm

We had a similar issue in my daughter’s school. When she had a classmate who lost both parents tragically, what was the “mother/ daughter day” became “special person’s day” so that the grandmother who raised her could fill in without other kids asking about it.

amother

White

Sat, Nov 18 2017, 6:08 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Socializing with both genders. Not a good idea.

amother

Goldenrod

Sat, Nov 18 2017, 7:44 pm

I think real sensitivity would be arranging for some adults to be available to take children who don't have someone to take them. Changing the name is a nod to sensitivity without actually doing anything concrete to help.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sat, Nov 18 2017, 9:26 pm

In our community in Williamsburg there is an organization called TOSHIA that matches up children without a father ( either bc of divorce/separation or yosem etc) with a responsible adult to learn with the child.

amother

Ivory

Sun, Nov 19 2017, 12:57 am

amother wrote:

There was an organization in BP, 11 years ago, that had someone be a mentor for my son my divorce. Although, he offered to take my son to Avos Ubanim, my son was too embarrassed to go with him

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 19 2017, 3:58 am

amother wrote:

Socializing with both genders. Not a good idea.

I dont agree. And im in a community where its fine and we all are ok with kids, adults, everyone, socializing everyone together.

LovesHashem

Sun, Nov 19 2017, 4:58 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I dont agree. And im in a community where its fine and we all are ok with kids, adults, everyone, socializing everyone together.

Well, not all communities are like that.

etky

Sun, Nov 19 2017, 5:13 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Well, not all communities are like that.

Well, obviously.
Why are we going round in circles?
Shabbat was responding to a poster who, by positing a global, judgemental statement, was stating HER community's approach and delegitimizing Shabbat's community's stance regarding mixed gender venues.
So she responded that she doesn't agree...

saw50st8

Sun, Nov 19 2017, 5:20 am

amother wrote:

Socializing with both genders. Not a good idea.

Does your community then also host a Torah learning even for parents and daughters?

(my community also has a coed learning event and it's fantastic, but my kids are in a coed school)