What can be done to prevent people from growing up violent?

southernbubby

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:48 am

Raisin wrote:

here's a link to the freakonmics discussion. Some people have been trying to disprove this theory.

where is the link?

carrot

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:49 am

Raisin wrote:

I believe I read once a tendency towards being a sociopath can be eliminated with enough love.

edited to add link https://www.theguardian.com/co.....opath

I would love to know more, but that link isn't working for me?

southernbubby

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:59 am

hotzenplotz wrote:

I know of a young woman who was violent, picking up knives when things didnt go her way.
A kind rebetzin, twice her age (no relation) connected with her, holding her hand through rough times. Today the young woman is stable, and is a certified volunteer in a family crisis center. QUIET HEROES ARE ALL AROUND US. LOOK FOR THEM.

Reminds me of a story that happened to a friend of mine. She saw a girl from a troubled but frum home who was hanging out with the wrong crowd so she told the girl to get into the car, and they went to her home, packed up some clothes, and they went to the director of a sleep away camp and the friend demanded that the girl be admitted to the camp and then she called all her friends to help pay the camp tuition. That girl is now a frum woman and the mother of children.

My son had gotten a ride from the LGA airport with a rabbi who is an activist and on the way home, the rabbi spotted a girl from a troubled home in a playground where the troublemakers hung out. The rabbi stopped the car, got out, went to the girl, and demanded that she leave that dangerous place and go somewhere where no harm could befall her. He saw that she would be attracted to that street element if he didn't intervene. Hopefully she appreciated his concern.

SixOfWands

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:18 am

Again, though, it isn't that easy.

We all would like to believe in the magical formula that if we love our kids, they'll turn out fine. Those sociopaths exist because mommy didn't love enough. Ditto the drug users.

But its not always true. Maybe its not even mostly true.

Nancy Spungen's parents described her as always being troubled. They repeatedly tried to get her help. But we all know what happened to her, while her siblings are (AFAIK) fine and normal.

Ted Kaczynski's family was pretty normal. His siblings are normal. He was ... not.

Philip Markoff was in medical school, was in the youth court, was a member of the National Honor Society, and was also the Craigslist Killer.

Denns Rader, the BTK Killer, was married for 34 years with two children, was a Boy Scout leader, was employed as a local government official, and was the president of his church congregation.

David Berkowitz engaged in a lot of petty crime as a kid, but I've never heard of abuse or anything else.

southernbubby

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:21 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Yes, but Six, are parents, both Jewish and gentile, missing opportunities to keep their children away from drugs? Apparently drugs can make an otherwise normal person do crazy and dangerous things. I see frum parents who are afraid to mention drugs but is this the best way to approach the topic?

imasoftov

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:32 am

southernbubby wrote:

"told the girl to get into the car"? "demanded that she leave"?

southernbubby

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:35 am

imasoftov wrote:

"told the girl to get into the car"? "demanded that she leave"?

The friend was close to the family but the family was going through some hard times and was happy for the assistance. She had to be a bit forceful because the parents would have simply brushed aside the concern because they were focused on other issues.

imasoftov

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:54 am

southernbubby wrote:

What can be done to prevent people from growing up to be only a bit forceful?

southernbubby

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 10:56 am

imasoftov wrote:

What can be done to prevent people from growing up to be only a bit forceful?

The friend who helped did a great thing. The child had a great time at camp and was kept off the streets. If you needed help but didn't know how to ask for it or even that you needed it, wouldn't you want your friends to be pushy? Or would you rather have your child end up on drugs or pregnant?

mommy201

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:01 am

If you notice, probably all of these well known violent people had a dysfunctional or abusive upbringing. They lack the self-control because they're brain never matured due to lack of connection and safety when they were a child. All I can say is to love your children more then ever and build up your relationship with them.

imasoftov

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:03 am

southernbubby wrote:

So now you've dialed it down from "a bit forceful" to "pushy".

southernbubby

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:24 am

imasoftov wrote:

So now you've dialed it down from "a bit forceful" to "pushy".

pushy, forceful, give me a break. The people were grateful, the kid had a great time, show me where the harm was done.

imasoftov

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:31 am

southernbubby wrote:

pushy, forceful, give me a break. The people were grateful, the kid had a great time, show me where the harm was done.

Because children aren't property.

southernbubby

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:37 am

imasoftov wrote:

Because children aren't property.

Children need to be protected and if their parents are unable to protect them, then society needs to step in. Ever heard of foster care?

imasoftov

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:48 am

southernbubby wrote:

Children need to be protected and if their parents are unable to protect them, then society needs to step in. Ever heard of foster care?

Where you live, do children get into foster care by a private citizen deciding this child needs fostering, I'd better grab her, or are there procedures?

southernbubby

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 11:54 am

imasoftov wrote:

Where you live, do children get into foster care by a private citizen deciding this child needs fostering, I'd better grab her, or are there procedures?

If even one person calls the authorities, there is an investigation. The parents did not object to what their friend did for their child. It had their full approval. Why are not getting that?

Raisin

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 1:12 pm

carrot wrote:

I would love to know more, but that link isn't working for me?

Odd it won't let me copy and paste the link. Here is the whole article. If you google his name you will probably find loads more stuff on these studies.

How I discovered I have the brain of a psychopath by James Fallon

I first discovered my “hidden” psychopathy in 2006 during a series of scientific and clinical studies of murderers and patients with psychopathy and schizophrenia, as well as a separate imaging genetics study of Alzheimer’s disease in which I happened to be a control subject.

In that study, we were more than a little surprised to find that I had the brain imaging pattern and genetic make up of a full-blown psychopath. But it wasn’t until 2010, following a public talk in a University of Oslo symposium on bipolar disorder, that I first took my psychopathic traits seriously.

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Upon returning to my home in Southern California, I started to ask people close to me what they really thought of me, and if they believed me to be psychopathic. And tell me they did.

The people who knew me well, including family, friends and psychiatrists who examined me all, with the exception of my mother (who later relented and told me secrets of my early life problems that she had kept to herself for over 50 years), finally told me what they felt about my psychopathic behaviors. When tested for psychopathy, I consistently scored as a “pro-social” psychopathic, and borderline to being a categorical psychopath.

There were early signs, but these disturbances were largely offset by my otherwise cheerful, positive and agreeable outgoing traits, ones that would mark me as both class clown in my high school class and Catholic boy of the year in my post-pubertal years. I was athletic, funny, good looking, and popular, often being asked to take on leadership positions from high school to this day as a professor.

But throughout those years, there was always the odd clinician, cleric, or teacher here and there who told me point blank that there was something decidedly evil about me. I always blew them off. While I laughed at their comments, they never even cracked a smile. After all, I knew my constant manipulation of people and of situations was all in good fun.

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Although I made pipe bombs as a kid, and did some joy riding in stolen cars and broke into some liquor cabinets as an early teen, we always returned every piece of stolen property. And any time we were stopped by the police, my lack of anxiety meant the police always let me go, even while my buddies were hauled off for questioning. I was devilish for sure, but a sort of tolerable lovable devil. The pranks and manipulations and party mayhem got riskier and would involve tens and hundreds of others as I got older.

One thing pointed out to me was that simply taking on highly risky behaviors by myself was hardly psychopathic. It was when I endangered the lives of others, unwittingly sucked into my games, that they started to resemble psychopathy.

One example occurred in the 1990s when I was living in Africa. One of my brothers from New York visited me and I took him to the Kitum Caves in Mt Elgon, on the border of Uganda and Kenya. After the trip, about two years later, my brother called me in a fury, and really has not trusted me since. He had found out that I had taken him to the abandoned mountain and caves because that is where the deadly Marburg virus was thought to originate. Knowing he would have refused to go if I told him about the virus there (let alone sleeping around a campfire surrounded by close-in lions, hyenas and a leopard all night), I never said a word. Until he found out.

This pattern of dangerous behaviour throughout my life was a telltale sign. I had justified it, and still do, by pointing out that I always engage in the same activities as those I put in danger.

Of the 20 traits of psychopathy on the Hare psychopathy checklist, I score very high on the traits associated with “positive” behaviours within factor 1, or Aggressive Narcissism, and what is called fearless dominance in the psychopathic personality inventory. Some of these traits are prevalent in the most successful CEOs and world leaders. A recent study done on US presidents shows that those such as JFK, FDR, and Bill Clinton, with high scores on this “psychopathic” trait, are also perceived as the best leaders (even though they lied to us).

Can psychopathy be cured? I know of no case of a teenager or adult who has ever reversed categorical, full blown psychopathy. At present pre-pubescent children with signs of emerging psychopathy are undergoing behavioural re-training and although early results are promising, the real test of permanence is not yet known.

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For myself, I decided to try to treat my wife and other loved ones with more care. Each time I’m about to interact with them, I pause for a moment and asked “what would a good person do here?” and notice that my instinct is to always do the most selfish thing at that moment. My wife started noticing this and after two months said “what has come over you?”. When I told her that I was trying to use my own narcissism to show that I could, against all odds, overcome my psychopathy, she said she appreciated the effort even though I was not sincere. I still don’t understand how she can accept that insincerity. Perhaps people just want to be treated with respect and kindness. I find that astonishing.

But why, in the light of the fact I have all of the biological markers for psychopathy, including a turned off limbic system, the high risk genetic alleles, and the attendant behaviours, including well over half of those listed in the psychopathy tests and low emotional empathy, did I turn out to be a successful professor and family man? One most likely reason is that although I have the genetic makeup of a “born” psychopath, some of those very same “risk” genes in someone showered with love (versus abuse or abandonment), from childbirth through the critical first few years of life, appear to offset the psychopathy-inducing effects of the other “risk” genes.

This is why I tell my 97 year old mother that the book I wrote about a young boy who could have turned out to be quite a danger to society is just about someone who will do anything to beat you in a game of Scrabble, or follow you into a deadly cave. She still doesn’t realise that the book is not about me, it is about her.

James Fallon will be on Insight at 8.30pm, Tuesday on SBS ONE

SixOfWands

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 1:56 pm

mommy201 wrote:

My whole point is that they don't. That's a nice little fairy tale we tell ourselves. It couldn't happen to us. We're good parents. Its all the fault of their upbringing.

Well, its simply not true.

dancingqueen

Mon, Nov 20 2017, 2:11 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

My whole point is that they don't. That's a nice little fairy tale we tell ourselves. It couldn't happen to us. We're good parents. Its all the fault of their upbringing.

Well, its simply not true.

Right, it seems to be a combination of nature and nurture.

And we’ve all seen what can happen when a psychopath has easy access to weapons.

imasoftov

Tue, Nov 21 2017, 1:42 am

southernbubby wrote:

If even one person calls the authorities, there is an investigation. The parents did not object to what their friend did for their child. It had their full approval. Why are not getting that?

The important difference is that in your two examples, the authorities were not called.