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Help with Teenage Daughters!!!
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 5:31 pm
My daughter just told me "when I was younger you made me think you were perfect. Now I see all your faults. Like how you're controlling, and how you overreact to things..."

I was so enraged I had to beg her to go to another room so I wouldn't hit her. Now I'm processing and I realize I'm feeling shame and deep pain and fear. Because I AM those things. But I'm not only those things, I have way more good qualities than those. And it is so humiliating to be told that by my daughter.

Lately she has been speaking to me this way, treating me this way...she's fourteen, it's been a buildup over the past two years, but now it's soooo triggering and painful. Always criticizing my appearance, my parenting of the younger ones, and telling me I havent given her enough. She's very mature, very savy, her articulation is hardly ever straight chutzpah that I can give consequences, its very subtle, sometimes just through her looks or attitude. We have a large family, and so many challenges, I am just cracking by having her verbal attacks on top of all my stress.

Please, please, please, more experienced mothers, how do you live in the same house with these impudent beings telling you your faults, and dramatically telling you that you're never measuring up in parenting them?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 5:59 pm
Laugh!

Seriously. You laugh and agree with her.

Then you explain that this is why we have the mitzvah of kibbud av v'em. When we're little, it's natural to look up to our parents (obviously I'm referring to normal or quasi-normal situations). It's natural to treat their preferences and attitudes as our own.

But when we start to get older, we realize that our parents are just people. They have strengths and weaknesses like everyone else. They have hang-ups and quirks from their own childhood experiences. And that's why we have to be commanded to respect them. It's easy to respect someone when you don't know his/her weaknesses; it's a lot harder to respect someonedespite his/her weaknesses.

You then point out that you experienced this with your own parents and that, I"YH, she will experience it with her children. Therefore, because the derech ha'teva is midda keneged midda, it is worthwhile to have rachmones on our parents' weaknesses. Someday, we will be the ones whose children see our weaknesses. How we treat our parents will determine how our children treat us.

This may be a bit too abstract for a 14-year-old. That's fine. Just repeat it every time she wants to play armchair psychologist with you.

I'm terrified that at 120, I"YH, my kever will be marked with a stone that says, "Her goat isn't tied here!" because that's always my primary parenting advice, based on the old adage, "How do you get your mother's goat? You find out where it's tied!"

Whether intentionally or not, your DD is getting your goat by sharing her observations of your character and personality. Move your goat! Laugh, agree, tell a mildly self-denigrating story -- whatever you need to do to make the point that you are perfectly aware of your foibles but don't define your value by them. Never, ever let your child find that goat!
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Boca00




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 6:06 pm
Fox wrote:
Laugh!

Seriously. You laugh and agree with her.

Then you explain that this is why we have the mitzvah of kibbud av v'em. When we're little, it's natural to look up to our parents (obviously I'm referring to normal or quasi-normal situations). It's natural to treat their preferences and attitudes as our own.

But when we start to get older, we realize that our parents are just people. They have strengths and weaknesses like everyone else. They have hang-ups and quirks from their own childhood experiences. And that's why we have to be commanded to respect them. It's easy to respect someone when you don't know his/her weaknesses; it's a lot harder to respect someonedespite his/her weaknesses.

You then point out that you experienced this with your own parents and that, I"YH, she will experience it with her children. Therefore, because the derech ha'teva is midda keneged midda, it is worthwhile to have rachmones on our parents' weaknesses. Someday, we will be the ones whose children see our weaknesses. How we treat our parents will determine how our children treat us.

This may be a bit too abstract for a 14-year-old. That's fine. Just repeat it every time she wants to play armchair psychologist with you.

I'm terrified that at 120, I"YH, my kever will be marked with a stone that says, "Her goat isn't tied here!" because that's always my primary parenting advice, based on the old adage, "How do you get your mother's goat? You find out where it's tied!"

Whether intentionally or not, your DD is getting your goat by sharing her observations of your character and personality. Move your goat! Laugh, agree, tell a mildly self-denigrating story -- whatever you need to do to make the point that you are perfectly aware of your foibles but don't define your value by them. Never, ever let your child find that goat!


This is brilliant!
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 6:21 pm
Fox wrote:
Laugh!

Seriously. You laugh and agree with her.

Then you explain that this is why we have the mitzvah of kibbud av v'em. When we're little, it's natural to look up to our parents (obviously I'm referring to normal or quasi-normal situations). It's natural to treat their preferences and attitudes as our own.

But when we start to get older, we realize that our parents are just people. They have strengths and weaknesses like everyone else. They have hang-ups and quirks from their own childhood experiences. And that's why we have to be commanded to respect them. It's easy to respect someone when you don't know his/her weaknesses; it's a lot harder to respect someonedespite his/her weaknesses.

You then point out that you experienced this with your own parents and that, I"YH, she will experience it with her children. Therefore, because the derech ha'teva is midda keneged midda, it is worthwhile to have rachmones on our parents' weaknesses. Someday, we will be the ones whose children see our weaknesses. How we treat our parents will determine how our children treat us.

This may be a bit too abstract for a 14-year-old. That's fine. Just repeat it every time she wants to play armchair psychologist with you.

I'm terrified that at 120, I"YH, my kever will be marked with a stone that says, "Her goat isn't tied here!" because that's always my primary parenting advice, based on the old adage, "How do you get your mother's goat? You find out where it's tied!"

Whether intentionally or not, your DD is getting your goat by sharing her observations of your character and personality. Move your goat! Laugh, agree, tell a mildly self-denigrating story -- whatever you need to do to make the point that you are perfectly aware of your foibles but don't define your value by them. Never, ever let your child find that goat!


First of all Fox, thanks for responding, you have good parenting advice.

Gosh, I think I just let her find my goat. My goat is my shame that I am just like my own mother, controlling and overreactive. Especially right now, I'm so stressed, I'm at my worst. So she knows my buttons, I've shown them, now what?

I absolutely hate when she plays armchair psychologist with me. I don't know how to be so invincible like you are suggesting. I'm always too overwhelmed caring for her siblings to think on my feet like that.

My past response is usually to be very emotionally vulnerable and honest, for example later this evening I might say "when you said what you did earlier I was really triggered because...". And then go on to have a DMC with her about our feelings, relationship, etc. But I think you're saying I've been showing my vulnerability and allowing her to have the upper hand, allowing her to think she can say so many things to me as if she's on my level, like a friend?

It's already a pattern around here, and it's very hard for me to change, to just laugh like that when she triggers me. But she is really getting very big for her britches!
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 6:58 pm
amother wrote:
I absolutely hate when she plays armchair psychologist with me. I don't know how to be so invincible like you are suggesting. I'm always too overwhelmed caring for her siblings to think on my feet like that.

The great thing about goats is that they're pretty moveable. Teenage daughters are absolutely unparalleled at finding our goats, so we have to get creative.

My best suggestion is that you plan and even practice what you're going to say. I personally like the laughing + admission response because it completely closes the subject.

TEENAGER: You know, Ima, I've been noticing how controlling you are. I mean, you just can't let anything go. Like, this morning, you went nuts when Leah wanted to wear her hair down. Don't you think that's actually counterproductive?

MOM (laughing): Yeah, I tend to get that from my mother. Maybe you'll escape the curse.

TEENAGER: Well, I plan to work very hard not to be controlling. It's a very negative trait.

MOM (pleasantly but slightly distracted): Well, I'm sure you'll do great.

There's not really much she can say in response other than keep repeating herself. In which case, you keep repeating yourself.

Sorry, but no DMCs about how she made you feel. She's a little pipsqueak and you're cooler than she is. In fact, she's not even cool enough yet to be let into your inner club of cool. She's just lucky someone as cool as you has taken time off from being cool to graciously parent her.

But here's the payoff: once you've established that you're cooler than anyone she's ever met or will meet . . . then you can stick your toe back into the pond of DMCs. By that time, she will have learned that pointing out your flaws is not really a good way to achieve individuation.

I'm not using "cool" to suggest unavailable or unloving -- just that you have to send the message that you're so far above her silly criticisms that you find them humorous and cute. You're not mean-spirited or cold; you can't help that you're cooler than she is! Very Happy
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OutATowner




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 7:37 pm
As usual, fox has great advice.
But, after reading between the lines, is it possible that she may benefit from some one on one time? Go out for ice cream (or hot cocoa), a bookstore, wherever. Just to connect and focus on her, or more accurately, your relationship with her.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 7:45 pm
If you're not able to laugh it off, I think it's ok to tell her what she said was disrespectful.

But I wouldn't go on about it. Just a quiet comment (mildly distracted as Fox said), and move on. Don't bring it up again or engage the topic.

Separately, I would try to find opportunities for her to be responsible in the house. To give her jobs or ask her for help that would only be appropriate for a responsible kid.

Tonight, I was reviewing social studies with ds, and ds who's 14 kept interrupting with corrections. I delegated the testing to him. "Younger ds, you're so lucky to have an older brother who knows so much about Ancient Mesopotamia! Older ds, this is such a huge help, thank you!" (It only took 15 minutes)

So let your dd feel like she has a voice in the family, but in an age appropriate way.

Please don't get into dmc's with her. My mother did that. At the time I felt so mature, but looking back, I carried around all of my mother's stress and anxiety. Couldn't fall asleep at night, worrying about how she was managing. Never confided in her, because I didn't want to add my petty problems to her stress.

I wouldn't want to put my kids into that position.

OP you sound very caring and iH things will get easier
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 7:53 pm
I­t­ sounds like she could use some therapy
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oliveoil




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:00 pm
It's a normal, healthy part of life for kids to realize their parents aren't perfect. It's also hard. For both of you.
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amother
Cobalt


 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:05 pm
I don't want to throw this off track, but I'm just wondering - I tell my kids who are much younger (between ages 3 & 10) than that that Ima is not perfect and I make mistakes and I don't expect them to be perfect either, but when we make mistakes we try to fix them. Is that bad chinuch? Should I be trying to portray myself as "more perfect"/someone they think is really very good?
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:11 pm
amother wrote:
I don't want to throw this off track, but I'm just wondering - I tell my kids who are much younger (between ages 3 & 10) than that that Ima is not perfect and I make mistakes and I don't expect them to be perfect either, but when we make mistakes we try to fix them. Is that bad chinuch? Should I be trying to portray myself as "more perfect"/someone they think is really very good?


No way! I think what you say is great! I agree with Olive that it's a painful truth, but it is the truth. Your kids should know they can trust you to be honest.

That's very different than unburdening yourself emotionally on them, or looking to them for support
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 8:42 pm
amother wrote:
Should I be trying to portray myself as "more perfect"/someone they think is really very good?

ITA with OliveOil and Ginger Amother.

I think a lot of the OP's situation revolves around her DD's specific stage of development.

Young teenagers -- 11 to 15 -- are at a developmental stage where they've begun to see themselves as unique individuals, separate from their parents. It's similar to the Terrible Twos/Threes, where kids realize that they are physically unique beings. It's like the psychological version of that toddler stage.

At some level, they're just innocently amazed. Wow! Here's this woman whom I never thought about except as a mom, and now I'm noticing that she gets mad easily. Whoa! Girls, as members of the gender that received 9/10s of the speech in the world, can't help but stretch their wings a little.

At another level, they are testing their mothers to see how strong the nest really is. We've all heard that, "kids want boundaries." What that really means is that they want to know that the nest isn't going to crumble. By not taking her DD's commentary too personally, the OP can send the message that the nest is sturdy enough to withstand her DD's emerging personhood.

It's not all bad. This is also the age where they may ask questions about a parent's childhood and teenage years or be interested in funny stories from your past. it's also the age in which gentle coaching makes a real difference. You have a window of opportunity to impart your values because they're really listening.

I do like Amother's upthread suggestion of spending plenty of time with your DD. You don't need to do anything special. Take her with you to the grocery store. Ask her if she wants to go along while you do errands. If you drive, take her along for company when you pick up other kids, etc.

I hope no one will take my advice as endorsing a draconian, "I'm the mom and I'm in charge" attitude. Parents who constantly assert their authority when they don't need to are actually telegraphing their teens that they aren't in charge. Lions don't need to roar.

The OP is in a unique situation because right now, her DD knows where her goat is tied. Once she's safely removed her goat and her DD no longer has access to it, she will be able to open up more, though perhaps not quite as much as in the past.

Oy! I just realized I've got birds, lions, and goats all going on in this post. I'm going to quit before I have a whole zoo's worth of metaphors!
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Mon, Nov 20 2017, 9:02 pm
Fox wrote:
The great thing about goats is that they're pretty moveable. Teenage daughters are absolutely unparalleled at finding our goats, so we have to get creative.

My best suggestion is that you plan and even practice what you're going to say. I personally like the laughing + admission response because it completely closes the subject.

TEENAGER: You know, Ima, I've been noticing how controlling you are. I mean, you just can't let anything go. Like, this morning, you went nuts when Leah wanted to wear her hair down. Don't you think that's actually counterproductive?

MOM (laughing): Yeah, I tend to get that from my mother. Maybe you'll escape the curse.

TEENAGER: Well, I plan to work very hard not to be controlling. It's a very negative trait.

MOM (pleasantly but slightly distracted): Well, I'm sure you'll do great.

There's not really much she can say in response other than keep repeating herself. In which case, you keep repeating yourself.

Sorry, but no DMCs about how she made you feel. She's a little pipsqueak and you're cooler than she is. In fact, she's not even cool enough yet to be let into your inner club of cool. She's just lucky someone as cool as you has taken time off from being cool to graciously parent her.

But here's the payoff: once you've established that you're cooler than anyone she's ever met or will meet . . . then you can stick your toe back into the pond of DMCs. By that time, she will have learned that pointing out your flaws is not really a good way to achieve individuation.

I'm not using "cool" to suggest unavailable or unloving -- just that you have to send the message that you're so far above her silly criticisms that you find them humorous and cute. You're not mean-spirited or cold; you can't help that you're cooler than she is! Very Happy


Hi, op here, Fox, thank you so much for your post, it was exactly what I needed to hear. I just spent an hour going over your post with my husband, who very much has "cool club" status to my teens, and he and I role played a million different scenarios that take place with my daughter, and the responses I want to have. It is really not my personality to laugh off her comments, but we figured out a quick response to stop invasive armchair psychoanalysis before it starts. And the other biggy I need to employ - the art of ignoring. So many of her facial expressions, gestures, comments, etc, would just evaporate if I ignored them.

As for the suggestions to give her responsibilities in the home, she has age appropriate responsibilities and is very mature and capable, and she is treated as such. As for the suggestion to take her out for quality time, I am usually very careful about that, but lately we've had a ton of stress and I have definitely slacked off, so thanks for the reminder. As for the poster who suggested therapy, she had some last year for anxiety and the therapist suggested that she was a little too enmeshed with me, and feeling my stress and anxiety. The dmcs about how I'm feeling and trying to get her to see things from my perspective seem helpful and bonding in the moment, but they are clearly not working, I need to take back my authority and join my husband in the "cool club.". If anyone has any more suggestions about how to help my daughter not feel my feelings (besides for not sharing them with her), please share.

I want to thank everyone who responded to my post, this is the beginning of my journey into teenage land, and I was feeling so humiliated and powerless. I feel a lot more empowered tonight, like I CAN parent a teenager, so thanks.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:21 am
amother wrote:
Please don't get into dmc's with her. My mother did that. At the time I felt so mature, but looking back, I carried around all of my mother's stress and anxiety. Couldn't fall asleep at night, worrying about how she was managing. Never confided in her, because I didn't want to add my petty problems to her stress.


My DD is 14, too. I made this very mistake with her, and it came back to bite me, HARD.

I've gone through some intense therapy to get myself "unmeshed", and to take control of my own emotions. I had goats all over the place!

DD is finally acting like a decent human being, and treating me with more respect.

The very wise Fox has given me great advice and support over the past few years. I think everyone should sit up and listen. Love you, Fox! Very Happy
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amother
Amethyst


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 2:33 am
my kids aren't here yet, but my sister is currently 14. She and my mom have a relationship that could be described as not the best. My sister shows no respect, manipulates my mother, and just uses her for clothing, stuff, to go out and eat, etc.

She could use someone to show her how to be a proper human being. Not sure how I can do that as a sister...
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 4:15 am
Hi, op here again. I've been turning over this whole "enmeshed" thing in my mind,as I realized last night how my sharing feelings (with the best intentions - to be real, safe, vulnerable, etc) has caused harm to our relationship, and feelings of anxiety in my daughter.

I have a mother question for experienced mothers of teen daughters - as I mentioned before, we don't have a calm, quiet home environment, it's a large family, little kids, some are high needs, aging grandparents, etc. Just trust me, I'm juggling a lot, currently working on getting more payed help. But in a common occurrence that my daughter will hear me struggling with the little children, she'll run in to help, say, get one of them dressed for me in the morning. I've always praised her for this, saying "this is the hallmark of maturity - to be able to recognize someone else's needs and struggles, not only your own.". But how can I seem so in control and " cool " if she knows how much I need her her help?

And honestly, any large family needs all the older children to pitch in and help, she has other siblings that are very helpful as well, and she is praised and appreciated for her contributions. We are careful to never ask her for innapropriate amounts of help, so please don't suggest I'm hurting her by allowing her to help in the home. My question is just: how can I seem so cool when it's pretty obvious that I am a mere human struggling through this challenging stage of life, and that I clearly nree her help?
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1091




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 4:44 am
When my kids reminds me of past mistakes I tell them to add it to the list ....

And then we move on.

It’s easier w my dd15 then dd18. W dd18 I just repetitively say I can’t/won’t speak to you when you are yelling at me. I tried the arguing back, the you’re hurting me etc. didn’t work. Calmly saying I can’t speak to you now is minimizing the blow ups. Last week she even came back when she was calmer!
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 5:40 am
amother wrote:
Hi, op here again. I've been turning over this whole "enmeshed" thing in my mind,as I realized last night how my sharing feelings (with the best intentions - to be real, safe, vulnerable, etc) has caused harm to our relationship, and feelings of anxiety in my daughter.

I have a mother question for experienced mothers of teen daughters - as I mentioned before, we don't have a calm, quiet home environment, it's a large family, little kids, some are high needs, aging grandparents, etc. Just trust me, I'm juggling a lot, currently working on getting more payed help. But in a common occurrence that my daughter will hear me struggling with the little children, she'll run in to help, say, get one of them dressed for me in the morning. I've always praised her for this, saying "this is the hallmark of maturity - to be able to recognize someone else's needs and struggles, not only your own.". But how can I seem so in control and " cool " if she knows how much I need her her help?

And honestly, any large family needs all the older children to pitch in and help, she has other siblings that are very helpful as well, and she is praised and appreciated for her contributions. We are careful to never ask her for innapropriate amounts of help, so please don't suggest I'm hurting her by allowing her to help in the home. My question is just: how can I seem so cool when it's pretty obvious that I am a mere human struggling through this challenging stage of life, and that I clearly nree her help?


OP, I agree that children should contribute to the family and learn to be responsible for their own things.

But I think the problem is the word Relying. It's about the emotional burden. A 14 year old should not feel like her mother can't manage without her.

If your daughter is volunteering, I would actually sit down with her and tell her that while you very much appreciate her help, you want her to know that some things are Mommy's jobs, and it's unfair of you to expect her to do Mommy's job. IH she'll have her chance for those jobs in the future.

I also would NOT praise her for her maturity when she assists you in that way. She may feel that if she does not help you, you will no longer respect or love her. This would be a constant barrier in your relationship.

All that being said, you do sound overwhelmed. Can you try to brainstorm with dh what some other solutions might be? But your 14 year old dd's assistance should not factor into the equation.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 6:57 am
amother wrote:
My daughter just told me "when I was younger you made me think you were perfect. Now I see all your faults. Like how you're controlling, and how you overreact to things...

Please, please, please, more experienced mothers, how do you live in the same house with these impudent beings telling you your faults, and dramatically telling you that you're never measuring up in parenting them?

My policy is to join my teens. For example, "I am glad your vision turned out good - you get to see me accurately now :-)
Or, "oh yes, I''m very controlling."
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amother
Wine


 

Post Tue, Nov 21 2017, 7:37 am
My question is just: how can I seem so cool when it's pretty obvious that I am a mere human struggling through this challenging stage of life, and that I clearly nree her help?//


It sounds to me like you're separating these 2 things - like either you're cool or you're a struggling human. Why are these opposite sides of a coin? Why can't you be a cool, struggling, human? Most ppl I know are!

I think its healthy and normal for kids to see how we manage in tough times and if she pitches in, well I think she's amazing and you're amazing to have raised a child like that! If the emotional weight of all that's going on isn't her responsibility, then she can certainly view you as a great but flawed human going through some rough times. Everyone has that at some point. Needing help doesn't make us uncool. To me this is not a contradiction.
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