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Do you find this profile of Judge Rachel Freier inspiring
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amother
Linen


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 1:33 pm
Alternative wrote:
Let me get this straight. A single woman (widow or divorced) cannot hire a male gardener, plumber, electrician, or tutor for her son? After all, they would have to report to her, she would be paying them.
It gets stranger and stranger.



I'm actually now interested if those who hold by 'women in no capacity can have authority over men' also hold that women don't have rights to property (like cash) so paying a gardener or tutor would be a non-issue. I don't know the answer. Just wondering. I may be out to lunch.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 1:47 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Well, it certainly makes a good argument for voting against Hillary Clinton.

Halachah for Trump! Cheers


Im sure Ivanka makes lots of important decisions though, possibly even who to hire.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 2:08 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
But she held down a job, went to college, and baked challah in her spare time. All while her children were growing up. Do you that this is realistic?


Very common in my world, though most finish college before having kids. Many have kids during grad school though, including me. I still think she is a remarkable woman.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 2:13 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Very common in my world, though most finish college before having kids. Many have kids during grad school though, including me. I still think she is a remarkable woman.


I think that 80% of the population at large couldnt possibly do what she did, no matter how hard theyd try.

She has to be uniquely bright to have been able to work and go to law school at the same time as having kids. Going through Law school without working and without kids isnt easy.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 6:05 pm
tichellady wrote:
You are oversimplifying things here. The rambam never says I­t­ applies to all positions of authority. He is talking about serarah- communal authority. I am going to copy and paste a good explanation of the issue from http://text.rcarabbis.org/wome.....fgot/

“The most substantive halakhic argument generally put forward against women receiving some form of rabbinic ordination and serving as spiritual leaders in synagogues is the import of Maimonides’ famous ruling on serarah. Maimonides, in Hilkhot Melakhim 1:5 maintains that not only are women excluded from serving as king in a halakhic state, but all positions of serarah-communal authority are barred to women. Many commentators have noted is that it is difficult to find an explicit source in our standard texts of midrashei halakha and Talmud for this far reaching position.[1] Indeed, as many halakhic scholars of the past and present (e.g. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Igrot Moshe, YD II:44) have noted, Maimonides’ position seems to be rejected by a good number of rishonim and is not cited as normative halakha in subsequent halakhic codes such as the Shulhan Arukh.

2. If one were still to desire to be cognizant and careful to work within the parameters of Maimonides, it is still incumbent upon us to clarify what exactly is included under the rubric of serarah. Should it be understood broadly to refer to almost any communal position of authority or status, whether it involves an appointment by fiat or an elected position, as well as whether it involves coercive power or not? Many rabbinic scholars, especially amongst some of the aharonim have taken that expansive point of view. They, therefore, would feel that almost any appointment of communal authority should be barred to women. In this paradigm a woman serving as president of a shul or as a rabbi of a synagogue would raise halakhic problems.[2]
Other rabbinic scholars, however, have taken a much more limited reading of the Rambam and maintain that the definition of communal serarah (and thus the subsequent restriction) should be limited to those communal positions of authority that truly mimic the kingship model. In this paradigm only positions that are imposed on the populace with some absolute powers would fall under the Rambam’s categories of serarah. In this paradigm a rabbi of a synagogue who is hired by an election, and fired at the will of the congregation and board would clearly not fall into the category of some inappropriate position of authority even according to Maimonides. Other rabbinic scholars of note have also pointed to the concept of kaballah, of communal acceptance of a woman as obviating the restriction of the Rambam in the view of a number of rishonim. Many significant Modern-Orthodox poskim (though not all) have certainly taken that position over the last century on issues such as permitting women’s suffrage and election to serve in high office or as the president of a shul or a member of a religious council. Indeed, to my knowledge, over the last decades a number of women have served in the position of president of their synagogues (a number affiliated with the Orthodox Union) without any formal objection.
Mori verabi, Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, in a conversation with former students currently serving in the rabbinate and Jewish education, recently (December, 2009) discussed this halakhic issue. He pointedly noted that it is clear that the Dati-Leumi/Modern-Orthodox community and its rabbinic elite2 have clearly come down in favor of a more narrow reading of the Rambam’s restriction. He pointed to the fact that for the last two decades religious women have run as candidates of Dati-Leumi religious parties across the board, for Knesset, and some have served as members of parliament. In addition, a few have served as ministers in the coalition governments with the approval (despite an occasional rumble here and there) of the rabbinic leadership of those parties. These have included scholars such as R. Avraham Shapira zt”l, R. Mordechai Eliyahu (may he have a refuah shelimah), Rav Yaakov Ariel and others.3
R. Lichtenstein stated that clearly a member of parliament and certainly a government minister is often involved in coercive legislation or votes on budgets involving tens of millions of shekels or issues of war and peace. This position is clearly more of a serarah than any shul rabbi or president. He thus felt that certainly in Israel, the Modern-Orthodox community has taken the position that the expansive reading of the Rambam, limiting women’s roles, is not the normative ruling.
IV.
In this context, I would also add a question of halakhic methodology and consistency that needs to be examined in this (and many other halakhic) issue. There are many communal voices who despite the existence of opinions against the Rambam’s view or severely restricting its contemporary application take the position that we should be mahmir for the shitat ha-Rambam.
Here it has always struck me as odd why on this specific issue is the “Rambam’s position” the only one that should be entertained communally?
There are many other opinions of the Rambam, some of them quite central to his world-view that much of the Orthodox community seems to have no problem in neutralizing or ignoring because other views exist. In many cases the sociological realities pressed us to be lenient and to consider other countervailing factors and values.
For example:
A) Many of the communal rabbis or activists who authoritatively cite the Rambam on serarah do not hesitate to allow their communities to use the standard communal eruvin, both in their local neighborhoods and all over the world. According to shitat ha-Rambam almost all our eruvin are not kosher as they have more than a ten amot gap between eruv posts. This communal practice, approved by the rabbis, involves weekly instances of thousands upon thousands of acts of hillul Shabbat (albeit rabbinic in nature in most instances).
B) Rambam maintains that receiving money for learning Torah is a violation of Hillul Hashem (the worst sin possible in the Rambam’s hierarchy of sin in Hilkhot Teshuvah).
Yet the Hareidi, Modern-Orthodox, Dati-Leumi, and Hardal worlds not only neutralize the binding nature of this Rambam, but trumpet the existence of various kollelim as the pinnacle of their educational infrastructure!
C) Rambam maintains that praying to angels or intermediaries is a violation of one of the thirteen Principles of Faith for which one loses his or her portion in the World to Come and is defined as a heretic. Yet many communities in the Orthodox world, both Hareidi and Modern, continue to incorporate numerous passages in the liturgy of the synagogue that Rambam would say borders, if not outright violates, that principle. We are speaking here of a safeik de-oraita on a violation of a principle of faith-an ikkar of emunah. Yet, despite the gravity of the issue at stake there is no sense of being mahmir for the Rambam!.
There are myriads of more halakhic issues that one can cite but the point is clear.
In all these instances, of course, there are other rishonim who take issue with Rambam, or there are aharonim who limit the Rambam and attempt to show even he would agree in this or that situation (sometimes more convincingly, sometimes much less so). In many instances, aharonim attempt to show that because of pressing need or another countervailing Torah value we need to be lenient and not only look to Rambam as dispositive. In a word, through the give and take of halakha and the analysis of the social realities and religious needs of the community, this or that Rambam does not become the final word in the living, practicing reality of the committed community. Thus, the simple statement that “we should be mahmir for shitat ha-Rambam” is far from simple. The question has to be evaluated on a much broader canvas of the potential countervailing legitimate Torah needs, halakhic values and spiritual directions (e.g la’asot nahat ruah lenashim, greater increase in avodat Hashem, enhancement of Orthodoxy and kevod shyamayim,) that may point us to look to other views besides the restrictive reading of a Rambam.
(I would like to make it clear that this “halakhic inconsistency’ is not limited to those of a more “conservative” –with a small c – bent. The same occurs in the more “liberal” parts of the community who on occasion cite this or that view of a Hareidi posek without being consistent to his viewpoints in other areas. This is not always out of bounds. My point is simply that the idea that we simply need to follow “the Rambam” in this or any case requires a lot more honest discussion.)”


Dr. Noam Stadlan has a more extensive analysis of the issue of serarah, which can be found in this article -- https://drive.google.com/file/...../view -- starting on p. 15. (Note that this article incorporates the quote from Rabbi Helfgot, but is much more extensive.)

The Orthodox Power Structure is clearly picking and choosing when they try to rely on serarah to deny women the right to serve as rabbis. They ignore the equivalent prohibition on male converts, and they ignore the many other positions of power which many religious women today enjoy.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 6:31 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Dr. Noam Stadlan has a more extensive analysis of the issue of serarah, which can be found in this article -- https://drive.google.com/file/...../view -- starting on p. 15. (Note that this article incorporates the quote from Rabbi Helfgot, but is much more extensive.)

The Orthodox Power Structure is clearly picking and choosing when they try to rely on serarah to deny women the right to serve as rabbis. They ignore the equivalent prohibition on male converts, and they ignore the many other positions of power which many religious women today enjoy.

Thanks, will check I­t­ out.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 9:25 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Very common in my world, though most finish college before having kids. Many have kids during grad school though, including me. I still think she is a remarkable woman.


I went to college after I had kids. Trust me when I say, it is 1000 times harder.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 9:29 pm
Cookiegirl wrote:
Just curious, Mommyg8...

Who is halachically in the wrong? Me, for having male employees subordinate to me, or the men for taking the paycheck? I'd love to see a source for that...sheesh.


So, I had a really busy day today... and I just saw the responses. I did ask two knowledgeable people (men) that I know, and they both said they never heard of it. It could be someone made it up... or it could be it has specific parameters not applicable in today's world.

So, sorry for posting something that I had not verified. I take it back.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 10:14 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
So, I had a really busy day today... and I just saw the responses. I did ask two knowledgeable people (men) that I know, and they both said they never heard of it. It could be someone made it up... or it could be it has specific parameters not applicable in today's world.

So, sorry for posting something that I had not verified. I take it back.


Thanks for clarifying
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amother
Copper


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 10:43 pm
amother wrote:
Not at all viewed as rebellious or weird! To the contrary, she is respected and admired.


Re: Mindy, although we've definitely moved on. I do know some families that are a bit hesitant about her, not as a person, or in her position, but how to explain her life choices in the context of what is expected for most women career wise. There's definitely a bit of tension regarding her place as a role model. I think everyone agrees though that she's an amazing person and a wonderful representative for the community.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2017, 10:47 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Very common in my world, though most finish college before having kids. Many have kids during grad school though, including me. I still think she is a remarkable woman.



She's also remarkably blessed by Hashem to

1- have the very unique remarkable brains she was born with, and

2- have the uniquely supportive husband she has.

If not for the unique G-d given gifts, especially her brains, shed be no more remarkable than most.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 5:03 am
I am going now for my BA in accounting while working full time and with kids bh. (I'm very chassidish) In my community(not USA) the ultra Chassidish are going quicker for a BA and Master then the rest of the community. We do it via open university and such places. I personally do it in evening classes. Another year and I'm finished yeah ;-) So I think it is more and more in Chassidish circles that we go for a degree.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 5:22 am
amother wrote:
I am going now for my BA in accounting while working full time and with kids bh. (I'm very chassidish) In my community(not USA) the ultra Chassidish are going quicker for a BA and Master then the rest of the community. We do it via open university and such places. I personally do it in evening classes. Another year and I'm finished yeah ;-) So I think it is more and more in Chassidish circles that we go for a degree.


Is there a Chassidish community in Mars, because in the Chassidish community in Brooklyn, if anyone goes for a degree, its the husband. Very rarely the wife.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 6:58 am
Wel I'm not from Brooklyn as I said and there are communities outside of Brooklyn if you wouldn't know I'm telling you now ;-). Even in Israel allmost all of my SILS have BA's in teaching and are from BB, Husbands all sit and learn. BTW my DH does not have any degree and in my community it is rare to see a man with a degree.
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 7:05 am
I think it isn't tznius for a woman to be "campaigning"
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:03 am
tichellady wrote:
The rambam limits women and converts to positions of community authority, so this would actually apply to male converts as well...


I know male converts who are rabbis, so clearly this is not taken seriously.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 8:28 am
amother wrote:
Is there a Chassidish community in Mars, because in the Chassidish community in Brooklyn, if anyone goes for a degree, its the husband. Very rarely the wife.


I'm in Williamsburg. Degrees are becoming much more common. I think it started with Headstart and then Title 1 requirements. I personally know more women and girls with degrees or school plans than men, although I have heard that some yeshivas are able to give a Bachelors in Talmudic Learning for whatever that's worth. Perhaps the numbers are different outside my personal circle.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 9:02 am
amother wrote:
I am going now for my BA in accounting while working full time and with kids bh. (I'm very chassidish) In my community(not USA) the ultra Chassidish are going quicker for a BA and Master then the rest of the community. We do it via open university and such places. I personally do it in evening classes. Another year and I'm finished yeah ;-) So I think it is more and more in Chassidish circles that we go for a degree.


Can you tell me how you are getting your degree in accounting? Because I'm starting in this field, and people constantly ask me about accounting degree options. I don't know of any, so if it would be possible to tell me how you are doing this, it would be really helpful. I posted under my SN so that you can PM me if you'd rather not post specifics online. Thank you.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 9:06 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Can you tell me how you are getting your degree in accounting? Because I'm starting in this field, and people constantly ask me about accounting degree options. I don't know of any, so if it would be possible to tell me how you are doing this, it would be really helpful. I posted under my SN so that you can PM me if you'd rather not post specifics online. Thank you.


What options are you looking for? Many schools offer accounting programs. Here is an example http://www.excelsior.edu/progr.....egree
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 23 2017, 9:10 am
amother wrote:
What options are you looking for? Many schools offer accounting programs. Here is an example http://www.excelsior.edu/progr.....egree


I didn't check out excelsior yet, but how did you get the accounting classes? Did you take the actual accounting courses through excelsior? I never heard of that option, just wondering.
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