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Good or bad Idea to move the US embassy to Yerushalayim?
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Poll

Is it a good or bad idea to move the US embassy to Yerushalyim?
Good
 44%  [ 51 ]
Bad
 48%  [ 55 ]
Other
 7%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 114


Squishy









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:00 pm
DrMom wrote:
There is a 1995 law on the books in the US that says we must move our embassy to Jerusalem.

Every president since then has issued and then re-issued a 6-month "waiver" to exempt the Federal Govt from following the laws which Congress passed -- by a 374:37 vote.

Can the Executive Branch create "waivers" to avoid following other laws passed by the Legislative Branch? I do not understand how such waivers are Constitutional. Moving the embassy is required by US Law.


The waivers are part of the law.
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:03 pm
Here's what I don't understand. Does Israel get to tell the rest of the world where they get to build their embassies? No, we do not. So why does the rest of the world get to weigh in on where the US builds it's embassy in Israel?

As far as the Palestinians are concerned, if we keep the peace then they laugh at us for being weak and frightened little mice. If we stand up for ourselves and protect our borders, then they are innocent victims and we are murderers.

How can you negotiate with people like that? What
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:04 pm
heidi wrote:
As a resident of Israel and the mother of a soldier, (with more to come iy"H)- I think it's a terrible idea. Who cares whether America thinks Jerusalem is the capital or not? We know it is and that's all that matters-L-rd knows we don't need another excuse for the Arabs to kill us.


May your child, and all Israeli soldiers, be safe.

A number of my kids' friends have enlisted, or are making plans to enlist. So while I cannot imagine how you feel, I do have personal concerns as well.

AIUI, the White House stated that any actual move will take years and that the "specific boundaries" of Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem are still subject to peace talks.

So I don't see how this advances anything for Israel, other than to inflame people.
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Zeleze









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:11 pm
Is it really worth the bloodshed for this ?

We here in Israel live in constant fear for what will happen in the hour, and this is a issue benn talked for many many years and seems to be only a formall anouncment that will not change the status is Israel besides bringing hate and more attacks.

Should this have been via talks and agreements the turnout would and will be otherwise....

Trupm just make headlines each day, and this can be very hectic for Yidden here or around the world.
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Jeanette









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:18 pm
I'm no fan of Trump but in this case I think moving the embassy is the right thing to do.

Jerusalem already is the functional capital of Israel so this is just recognizing the reality. Israel will never accept a peace settlement that involves them moving the capital so it's not like this takes a potential negotiation off the table. The arab world is already a mess not to mention the situation in NoKo, this is small potatoes compared to all the crazy stuff already going on. Also, all the threats that arabs will riot in response sound like excuses. It's like people are giving them permission to riot and giving a clear message that this is the expected and appropriate response.

While in most cases Trump has used his chutzpah for the opposite of kedusha this is one example where just doing what you're gonna do and daring everyone else to do something about it may be the right approach. Of course it is Israel that bears all the risks here so the cynical view is that Trump is scoring political points with a particular segment of the population at no cost to himself.

I hear the argument that this step is tainted because it's coming from Trump, and it might be better for Israel not to align itself with a president who is so universally despised. I have no idea what the long term effects will be and if it will be good, bad or neutral for Israel in the long run.

I in no way believe that this move validates supporting Trump or legitimizes everything he's done until now. I'm far more worried about the effect he's having to destabilize the U.S. than this mostly symbolic move in Jerusalem.
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MiracleMama









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:33 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
If a US president other than menuval, charlatan, thief, and s-xual predator Donald Trump had made this decision, it would certainly have its merits.

As it is, in light of Trump's other actions, it's an embarrassment for the Jewish people.


Trump is not Jewish, thus nothing he does should or could be an embarrassment to the Jewish people.

I think what Trump just did was amazing. Will there be backlash in Israel? Probably. Possibly also in US and around the world. Obviously that upsets me and scares me. But that doesn't mean this was a wrong move. I don't know any other country where embassies are not placed in the capital cities. This is a strong message to the world that Israel deserves the same respect given every other country. It's a message to the world and to UN that they don't get to bully Israel. That there isn't one set of rules for Israel and another for everyone else.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:39 pm
Trump does well when he uses the teleprompter which he appeared to do and I am not sure who wrote the speech but it sounded good. I hope there won't be unintended negative consequences but the Reform movement is apparently backing the Palestinians so I hope that divisions between Jews won't get worse. Trump asked for peace and I hope that there will be peace.
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etky









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:41 pm
IMHopinion wrote:
If we are scared of their violence, then we are giving in to terror.
This is the exact definition of giving in to terror.

If we move the embassy, other countries will slowly follow, until the world will validate Jerusalem instead of Palestine.

Let’s face it, the Arabs will find a reason for violence anyway.


That said, Hashem should watch us all because it is really frightening.


While I am still undecided if the move is good or bad, and I have my doubts about whether this decision is part of a coherent policy or not, I agree with you wholeheartedly about not giving into terror.
We are in a war here and decisions on this scale have to made strategically towards the end goal of defeating terror. Decisions cannot be made piecemeal, out of fear of immediate results. One has to look at the bigger picture and think about long term ramifications.
If we had been scared of provoking Arab violence, the State of Israel would never have been born.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 1:53 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Trump does well when he uses the teleprompter which he appeared to do and I am not sure who wrote the speech but it sounded good. I hope there won't be unintended negative consequences but the Reform movement is apparently backing the Palestinians so I hope that divisions between Jews won't get worse. Trump asked for peace and I hope that there will be peace.


What Rabbi Jacobs said was,

Quote:
"While we share the President’s belief that the US Embassy should... be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, we cannot support his decision to begin preparing that move now, absent a comprehensive plan for a peace process," the statement read. "We urge the President to do everything in his power to move forward with efforts to bring true peace to the region and take no unilateral steps."


I don't interpret that as "backing the Palestinians."

I'd worry more about Netanyahu's apparent (but now denied) statement that he doesn't have to worry about what the majority of US Jews think because they're a "lost cause" that will "disappear in a generation or two." Because these are the folks that keep US politicians' feet to the fire with respect to support of Israel. And I don't think they much appreciate his dismissal of them.
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Fox









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 2:08 pm
This has Mohammed bin Salman's fingerprints all over it.

Arab leaders have grown increasingly frustrated with what they see as Palestinian intransigence in the last few years -- especially as each of the Palestinian factions has its hand out constantly.

The Saudis have become especially disgusted and have said so in pretty damning public terms. They have apparently reached the conclusions that Israel is not going anywhere; the Palestinians are a drain on everyone's resources; and they are more concerned by Iran's influence in the region.

My prediction is that there will be a great many dramatic announcements and vague threats from all over the Arab world condemning this action and expressing solidarity with Palestinians. Then the whole topic will more or less go away, and by the time any concrete action occurs, everyone will be focused on something else.

MbS's grand view almost requires a level of cooperation with Israel, and I think he's purposely edging toward that goal. While I don't necessarily believe that MbS is strategically deceitful, he has a long way to go before the Saudi Arabian swamp is drained and his visions are on track. Both the U.S. and Israel should be careful not to put all their Middle Eastern eggs is this single basket.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 2:09 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
I don't interpret that as "backing the Palestinians."

I'd worry more about Netanyahu's apparent (but now denied) statement that he doesn't have to worry about what the majority of US Jews think because they're a "lost cause" that will "disappear in a generation or two." Because these are the folks that keep US politicians' feet to the fire with respect to support of Israel. And I don't think they much appreciate his dismissal of them.


Here was the article that I was reacting to which quoted Jacobs but here was Commentary's interpretation:

https://www.commentarymagazine.....jerusalem/
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 2:12 pm
Here are the words of the former Chief Rabbi of the Great Britain, Rabbi Jonathan Sacks on this topic:
Rabbi Sacks on the status of Jerusalem
I welcome today’s decision by the United States to recognise as the capital of Israel, Jerusalem, whose name means “city of peace.” This recognition is an essential element in any lasting peace in the region.

Unlike other guardians of the city, from the Romans to the Crusaders to Jordan between 1949 and 1967, Israel has protected the holy sites of all three Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam and guaranteed access to them. Today, Jerusalem remains one of the few places in the Middle East, where Jews, Christians and Muslims are able to pray in freedom, security and peace.

The sustained denial, in many parts of the world, of the Jewish connection with Jerusalem is dishonest, unacceptable and a key element in the refusal to recognise the Jewish people’s right to exist in the land of their origins. Mentioned over 660 times in the Hebrew Bible, Jerusalem was the beating heart of Jewish faith more than a thousand years before the birth of Christianity, and two-and-a-half millennia before the birth of Islam.

Since then, though dispersed around the world, Jews never ceased to pray about Jerusalem, face Jerusalem, speak the language of Jerusalem, remember it at every wedding they celebrated, in every home they built, and at the high and holiest moments of the Jewish year.

Outside the United Nations building in New York is a wall bearing the famous words of Isaiah: "He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." Too often the nations of the world forget the words that immediately precede these: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.”

Those words, spoken twenty-seven centuries ago, remain the greatest of all prayers for peace, and they remain humanity’s best hope for peace in the Middle East and the world.
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leah233









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 2:18 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
I don't interpret that as "backing the Palestinians."

I'd worry more about Netanyahu's apparent (but now denied) statement that he doesn't have to worry about what the majority of US Jews think because they're a "lost cause" that will "disappear in a generation or two." Because these are the folks that keep US politicians' feet to the fire with respect to support of Israel. And I don't think they much appreciate his dismissal of them.


To a large degree he is correct already. Being that Jacobs is on the board of J Street what is there to lose by alienating him?

I've heard a different version that Netanyahu has said that groups like J Street have brought him to the conclusion that he nothing to lose by alienating "most" American Jews which J Street always claims to represent.
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etky









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 2:26 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Here are the words of the former Chief Rabbi of the Great Britain, Rabbi Jonathan Sacks on this topic:
Rabbi Sacks on the status of Jerusalem
I welcome today’s decision by the United States to recognise as the capital of Israel, Jerusalem, whose name means “city of peace.” This recognition is an essential element in any lasting peace in the region.

Unlike other guardians of the city, from the Romans to the Crusaders to Jordan between 1949 and 1967, Israel has protected the holy sites of all three Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam and guaranteed access to them. Today, Jerusalem remains one of the few places in the Middle East, where Jews, Christians and Muslims are able to pray in freedom, security and peace.

The sustained denial, in many parts of the world, of the Jewish connection with Jerusalem is dishonest, unacceptable and a key element in the refusal to recognise the Jewish people’s right to exist in the land of their origins. Mentioned over 660 times in the Hebrew Bible, Jerusalem was the beating heart of Jewish faith more than a thousand years before the birth of Christianity, and two-and-a-half millennia before the birth of Islam.

Since then, though dispersed around the world, Jews never ceased to pray about Jerusalem, face Jerusalem, speak the language of Jerusalem, remember it at every wedding they celebrated, in every home they built, and at the high and holiest moments of the Jewish year.

Outside the United Nations building in New York is a wall bearing the famous words of Isaiah: "He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." Too often the nations of the world forget the words that immediately precede these: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.”

Those words, spoken twenty-seven centuries ago, remain the greatest of all prayers for peace, and they remain humanity’s best hope for peace in the Middle East and the world.


Leave it to Rabbi Sacks to phrase this simple truth so eloquently.
I especially appreciate how he took this opportunity to subtly expose the absurdity of the recent UNESCO decision to deny Jewish ties to Jerusalem.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 2:39 pm
Here is a Jewish Journal article just posted that really gives food for though to those of us who have either mixed feelings or bad feelings about Trump, and I belong in the mixed feelings category most of the time and bad feelings some of the time but today I like what he said:

http://jewishjournal.com/rosne.....pital-duh/

Trump acted and now the rest is up to Hashem. I asked Rabbi Nathanial Lauer at his shiur today, what man is supposed to do about the possible negative unintended consequences of his actions are and he answered that after a person has carefully deliberated and made the best decision possible, the rest is up to Hashem.
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etky









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 2:50 pm
Fox wrote:
This has Mohammed bin Salman's fingerprints all over it.

Arab leaders have grown increasingly frustrated with what they see as Palestinian intransigence in the last few years -- especially as each of the Palestinian factions has its hand out constantly.

The Saudis have become especially disgusted and have said so in pretty damning public terms. They have apparently reached the conclusions that Israel is not going anywhere; the Palestinians are a drain on everyone's resources; and they are more concerned by Iran's influence in the region.

My prediction is that there will be a great many dramatic announcements and vague threats from all over the Arab world condemning this action and expressing solidarity with Palestinians. Then the whole topic will more or less go away, and by the time any concrete action occurs, everyone will be focused on something else.

MbS's grand view almost requires a level of cooperation with Israel, and I think he's purposely edging toward that goal. While I don't necessarily believe that MbS is strategically deceitful, he has a long way to go before the Saudi Arabian swamp is drained and his visions are on track. Both the U.S. and Israel should be careful not to put all their Middle Eastern eggs is this single basket.


This move is certainly reflective of the realignment and shifting ties in the Middle East, in which Saudi Arabia is a major player and in which the Palestinians are increasingly irrelevant and even a liability to most Arab regimes.
Netanyahu is at his shrewdest when it come to foreign relations so I would bet that he is aware of the pitfalls that you mentioned. Regarding the US - is the State Department on board with Trump's pro-Saudi orientation or will it act as a brake against his attempt to align the US, with the Saudis, against Iran?.
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naturalmom5









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 3:22 pm
https://youtu.be/76NytvQAIs0
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chaiz









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 3:30 pm
Fox wrote:

MbS's grand view almost requires a level of cooperation with Israel, and I think he's purposely edging toward that goal. While I don't necessarily believe that MbS is strategically deceitful, he has a long way to go before the Saudi Arabian swamp is drained and his visions are on track. Both the U.S. and Israel should be careful not to put all their Middle Eastern eggs is this single basket.


It is interesting to see you be cautious and why.
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naomi6









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 4:20 pm
The Palestinians are out there all the time ready to pounce on us anyways. We will weather it. Donald Trump wherever he is is pro Israel and the Jews - Hillary would've been a disaster erev more so.
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 8:22 pm
DrMom wrote:
I don't understand your logic.

If DT decides to do something, it is by definition bad, but if any other person made the same decision, it would be good?

Scratching Head


I get her. Rational or not, I feel uneasy, rather than wow, he's getting something right. I really can't put it into words now.
But in answer to the OP, I bow to those in E"Y. Whatever they think, and I'm hearing that most people are happy about it.
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