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seeker









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 10:04 pm
I think one of the difficulties in this conversation is that each participant is bringing in their own background - the original question is quite open-ended, and yet those taking argumentative stances are each inserting details (kindergarten? ADHD? Overcrowded classrooms? Etc), sometimes without even realizing until later.

Without taking an official position (I generally lean in favor of "it depends") I want to share a few thoughts:

1. With regard to the problem of deficient activity/fresh air/exercise, in some schools "missing recess" means that you need to do structured exercise instead of free play. For example, if the norm is 20 minutes of total free time during recess, then the "punished" child will spend 10 minutes running laps around the yard before he can proceed to total free time.

2. With regard to the accusation that recess penalties fail to address the developmental basis of misbehavior - that's jumping to a lot of conclusions. If you really want to look at this through the ABCs of behavior development, most teachers (IME) will use recess docking as a deterrent for behaviors whose main function (cause) is work avoidance. If I'm fooling around because I think (accurately) that fooling around is more fun than math practice, then it is appropriate to demonstrate to me that fooling around during math practice will net less fun overall.

3. Another good way to judge the value of recess reduction is to see if it works. You took away 2 minutes of recess to children who disrupted over the last three days. Did it result in the children stopping the disruptions? If so, what's the problem? If not, then you will know that there might be more going on that needs closer analysis. But that's valuable information and you didn't lose very much by trying. This is a valid behavioral technique - there are some things that you really cannot know whether or not a child is capable of until you see what they can do when really motivated. If you are sure that the child is motivated by recess time, and yet they are still unable to stop the behavior, that is a good way to determine that there is indeed something deeper to look into.

4. Every consequence needs to have limits. I think of all the things you can do to motivate a child to stop misbehavior, taking away a couple of minutes of recess is a pretty safe bet. But for all the reasons against it, you really can't take away too much or too often. A better system would be something like this:
Suppose the behavior being targeted is making excessive noise during lessons or work time.
First infraction: Warning.
Second infraction: Begin recess two minutes later than class.
Third infraction: Do assignment during recess (teacher arranges for assignment to be something that takes max 5 minutes, out of a ~15 min recess)
Fourth infraction: Note sent to principal/parent
IOW, you're not just taking away more and more recess. You are using the recess to send a message about the behavior, and if that message didn't work then it's on to plan B.
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notshanarishona









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 10:15 pm
I am a teacher . I don't hold of taking away recess if you have another choice. There are occasional times when it is needed to bring across a message I.e. lets say a student sits the whole period coloring and not doing his work and I can't make a battle with him then he needs to do it during his free time but for the most part the students are rewarded for cooperating and not getting a check/sticker on chart is enough incentive to cooperate. Also if it's used as a once in a blue moon punishment it makes a much bigger impression. I would never make that my first line of punishment. It's very much individualized according to the student.
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Squishy









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 11:17 pm
seeker wrote:
I think one of the difficulties in this conversation is that each participant is bringing in their own background - the original question is quite open-ended, and yet those taking argumentative stances are each inserting details (kindergarten? ADHD? Overcrowded classrooms? Etc), sometimes without even realizing until later.

Without taking an official position (I generally lean in favor of "it depends") I want to share a few thoughts:

1. With regard to the problem of deficient activity/fresh air/exercise, in some schools "missing recess" means that you need to do structured exercise instead of free play. For example, if the norm is 20 minutes of total free time during recess, then the "punished" child will spend 10 minutes running laps around the yard before he can proceed to total free time.

2. With regard to the accusation that recess penalties fail to address the developmental basis of misbehavior - that's jumping to a lot of conclusions. If you really want to look at this through the ABCs of behavior development, most teachers (IME) will use recess docking as a deterrent for behaviors whose main function (cause) is work avoidance. If I'm fooling around because I think (accurately) that fooling around is more fun than math practice, then it is appropriate to demonstrate to me that fooling around during math practice will net less fun overall.

3. Another good way to judge the value of recess reduction is to see if it works. You took away 2 minutes of recess to children who disrupted over the last three days. Did it result in the children stopping the disruptions? If so, what's the problem? If not, then you will know that there might be more going on that needs closer analysis. But that's valuable information and you didn't lose very much by trying. This is a valid behavioral technique - there are some things that you really cannot know whether or not a child is capable of until you see what they can do when really motivated. If you are sure that the child is motivated by recess time, and yet they are still unable to stop the behavior, that is a good way to determine that there is indeed something deeper to look into.

4. Every consequence needs to have limits. I think of all the things you can do to motivate a child to stop misbehavior, taking away a couple of minutes of recess is a pretty safe bet. But for all the reasons against it, you really can't take away too much or too often. A better system would be something like this:
Suppose the behavior being targeted is making excessive noise during lessons or work time.
First infraction: Warning.
Second infraction: Begin recess two minutes later than class.
Third infraction: Do assignment during recess (teacher arranges for assignment to be something that takes max 5 minutes, out of a ~15 min recess)
Fourth infraction: Note sent to principal/parent
IOW, you're not just taking away more and more recess. You are using the recess to send a message about the behavior, and if that message didn't work then it's on to plan B.


Some schools don't allow classroom teachers to send kids out or to send a note. It is seen as a weakness of the teacher's that she can't control her class. And some schools don't allow suspensions. Now what?

In overcrowded classrooms, the teacher and the other students do not have the time and ability to get to the root of the problem. You can't have 30 other kids waiting around while you dig deep for the root. You will have 20 more kids off task if you do that.

In ideal situations without time limits and complete backing from administration and parents and a deep budget to provide incentives the kids want and small classrooms, then maybe you can take away the ability to threaten to deny recess. But otherwise it is counterproductive to learning.
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Squishy









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 11:18 pm
mammala120 wrote:
I don’t know what schools u referring to but in my kids school it’s only 10 min 2x a day. Not even enough time to use bathroom due to long lines


How long is lunch?
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Squishy









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 11:34 pm
petiteruchy wrote:
The alternative is not a one liner. It requires the teachers to have a plan in place before they get to the point where they're threatening things. It requires a behavior plan that is understood and followed through by all the staff. It can include loss of privileges, but recess is not a privilege.

It requires teachers to actually think about why students react the way they do, and to teach inhibition, planning, time management, all those executive function skills.

It also requires teachers to change what they see as acceptable. Beating unruly students used to be an accepted and common punishment, but when teachers took that out of their toolbox, they had to adapt. Suspensions are another tool that used to be widely used and is now seen as ineffective and overly punitive.


You need to fix this at the administrative level of you want all the staff to cooperate. You also need to change the current thinking which is that teachers should control their class at the classroom level.

You also need to magically get time to teach inhibition. BTW is this like teaching a puppy bite inhibition? I am curious.

These children are over scheduled and under schooled in secular studies as it is. When do You propose they learn these executive functioning skills. They can't even get to state mandated curriculums. And where are you going to find staff trained in teaching executive functions. You are dreaming. You need practical solutions.

What privileges are can taking away? What privileges to you imagine these kid have?
To be clear, I am thinking of upper division elementary school kids. Someone mentioned kindergarteners.
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seeker









  


Post  Wed, Dec 06 2017, 11:44 pm
Squishy, it sounds like you have a lot of strong feelings on this. Do you have experiences you want to share? Are you a teacher?
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petiteruchy









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 12:34 am
Look, I'll just say this again. Bad schools are not an excuse. Obviously when you're dealing with terrible schools, losing a few minutes of recess is not the worst thing that's happening. But that doesn't make it good pedagogy.

I've worked at enough different schools and at enough grade levels (and have enough training) to feel like my opinion on this is valid. If the school is dealing with other major issues (badly or untrained teachers, overcrowding, bad curriculum etc) then there are higher priorities. But the way it is usually implemented - punitive, reactive, and intended to take a "privilege" away from children (when being outside and exercising is not a privilege) means that I'm very hesitant to recommend it, and I generally think that a teacher that uses it frequently is not thinking very deeply about their pedagogical methods.
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ssspectacular









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 9:54 am
I'm a teacher and never take away recess. Maybe because I can't sit for another minute myself.....
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amother




Ginger


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 10:54 am
Squishy wrote:
Please provide an alternative for all the lazy teachers who use this approach? I have now asked 3 times.

Please provide documentation that the teachers are lazy. I think a lazy teacher would let anything go. After all, it takes energy to control a class.

You are just reposting the point to raised before. Asked and answered. Move on. You didn't address a method to replace taking away up to 5 minutes of recess.

BTW, I don't think your info is totally correct. You would do better if you used primary sources.


I'm not an attorney. You've mentioned that you are. So I'm sure that you have much better access to primary sources than I do. Since you're the one who claimed that taking away recess time is OK since Jewish schools have more recess than legally required, why don't you post the statutes, instead of criticizing my secondary sources.

I'm also not a teacher, so I'm not familiar with all of the tools that s/he should have at her disposal. Her first step is to consider her own classroom management techniques. Is she doing everything that she can to engage students. Is she using a variety of teaching methodologies that are engaging to different types of learners. Is the student genuinely not paying attention. A kinesthetic learner may appear not to be paying attention when she genuinely is; giving him something to manipulate may help focus his attention. Younger students may do well with rewards.

But not taking away the few minutes that a child has to move and play.
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 1:43 pm
petiteruchy wrote:
Look, I'll just say this again. Bad schools are not an excuse. Obviously when you're dealing with terrible schools, losing a few minutes of recess is not the worst thing that's happening. But that doesn't make it good pedagogy.

I've worked at enough different schools and at enough grade levels (and have enough training) to feel like my opinion on this is valid. If the school is dealing with other major issues (badly or untrained teachers, overcrowding, bad curriculum etc) then there are higher priorities. But the way it is usually implemented - punitive, reactive, and intended to take a "privilege" away from children (when being outside and exercising is not a privilege) means that I'm very hesitant to recommend it, and I generally think that a teacher that uses it frequently is not thinking very deeply about their pedagogical methods.


Ha It sounds like you are experienced in a different type of school than the general RW schools. Generally, the overwhelming majority of teachers are not well educated. Those that hold degrees often matriculated at frum schools. They are not the equivalent.

Most schools are not well funded. Parents with larger numbers of kids can't afford more tuition. They can't afford teachers who hold real degrees from top universities.

You need to look at this realistically.

Again, the children are not losing more than 5 minutes of recess. It is also not necessarily done in a reactive manner. It can be part of a well organized discipline program within the classroom with the students clearly aware of the consequences. The children can get 2 warnings before they will lose ONE minute of recess.

What other consequences can you give for bad behavior? I think this is my 5th time asking on this thread. Instead of saying whay not to do, say what to do within the actual existing parameters.

You claim this is your field. Let's say the students are upper division elementary school boys who start school at 7:30 and end at 5:30. At the end of the day, they are overwhelmed and tired before their last recess of the day which happens to be the 4th recess of the day. Secular studies are not respected. Administration is not involved in classroom discipline. There are no resource rooms for sn students. You have 30 boys in the classroom.
You can't make the parents your partner.

Now what do you do if you take away the most effective consequence. Remember it is never more than 5 minutes.
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:00 pm
amother wrote:
I'm not an attorney. You've mentioned that you are. So I'm sure that you have much better access to primary sources than I do. Since you're the one who claimed that taking away recess time is OK since Jewish schools have more recess than legally required, why don't you post the statutes, instead of criticizing my secondary sources.

I'm also not a teacher, so I'm not familiar with all of the tools that s/he should have at her disposal. Her first step is to consider her own classroom management techniques. Is she doing everything that she can to engage students. Is she using a variety of teaching methodologies that are engaging to different types of learners. Is the student genuinely not paying attention. A kinesthetic learner may appear not to be paying attention when she genuinely is; giving him something to manipulate may help focus his attention. Younger students may do well with rewards.

But not taking away the few minutes that a child has to move and play.


I never said I was as attorney. Where did you get that from? On a different thread, someone else thought I was an accountant. I am not interested in researching this again. I researched it because I was interested for real life reasons.

I was waiting for someone to bring up rewards as an alternative for taking away recess. The problem with rewards is who pays for them. Older children are not happy with what younger children are. You have diminishing returns with rewards. The kids want more and more. Paying for snacks or toys for 30 children is expensive.
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Iymnok









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:05 pm
Squishy, you don't get it. You are looking for an alternative punishment.
A good teacher tries to find what the child needs instead of looking for punishments.
My son is 5. His rebbi saw that punishing or telling him off didn't work, so he sat him right next to his desk and gave him more attention. He now behaves much better.
There is something wrong with the teacher if they need to keep finding punishments. That is not chinuch. The teacher's job is to teach the kids, if a child isn't getting it, they need to reevaluate their methods.
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keym









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:11 pm
And taking away recess very quickly loses its effectiveness especially if it maxes at 5 min and then what? The teacher/administration/etc need to decide whats important to them.
Ime the best prizes that my 4th grade and older sons are motivated by are extra recess, daily installment of serial story, or teacher challenging boys to sport or board game by recess.
But yeah an english teacher (im getting the feeling youre talking about rw upper elementary boys) actually has to put in the effort.
And like ive said upthread if my son is goofing off during class and doesnt do the work I have no problem if he has to stay and do two math problems because its a consequence for not doing the work. But keeping in from recess if he did the work but was mouthy, or goofing off, no sorry. Find a different consequence or better yet a class motivational technique.
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InnerMe









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:27 pm
My opinion is also that it generally is ineffective to take away recess, as well as detrimental to students. Squishy, what you are basically saying is that you are not equipped with the right tools from the staff, the parent body and the environment which is what makes it hard to discipline a class in an ideal manner. Fair enough. Thing is that every school will have some or all these issues to some degree. Perhaps the schools you have experience with do tend to suffer from these more then other schools. But, at the end of the day, you are a teacher, an educator. And just the same way you teach the children math or science or chumash, it's also an educator's job to nurture the child as a whole, and not do the opposite. Is that a tough job? Yes, of course. Especially since your tools are severely handicapped.
But at the end of the day, you need to know that you are not using these as an excuse for unproductive methods.

Also, as Seeker said so articulately, in a case where a child is fooling around in middle of class, it may be ok to use this method. At a reasonable age, and within a reasonable time slot. Again it depends on the situation, and on the child. There really are no blanket solutions when it comes to educating precious children. I don't think it's a "never" situation. It just needs to be used with thought and vision of what this is accomplishing.

And then you say you don't have time, energy, space to teach such things, make such decisions. I totally hear you and get you. I taught and I know what it's like to have to juggle so many responsibilities-- but my main message to you is this: try to see where YOU can improve as a teacher. And look at it, as in this is the set of circumstances in this school what decisions do I need to make to make the children grow. After all if they know their times table by heart, yet they have been hurt by us several times we have failed to do our job.

And sometimes if your circumstances are so severely handicapped, that you cannot do your job properly then maybe look for a different school with a better set of circumstances. Your main goal in teaching is to empower, and inspire students to growth. If that connot be reached, and instead you find yourself harming then it may be time to find a different setting in which you can do your job.
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amother




Aubergine


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:43 pm
Ruchel wrote:
Do what works and is legal.


So you're saying teachers should take away recess? It works and it's legal.
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Optione









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 2:47 pm
amother wrote:
So you're saying teachers should take away recess? It works and it's legal.

If it works, then yes, a teacher should. Out of the 40 weeks of recess, if a kid misses 5 minutes on two different occasions, he'll be perfectly fine.
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:40 pm
InnerMe wrote:
My opinion is also that it generally is ineffective to take away recess, as well as detrimental to students. Squishy, what you are basically saying is that you are not equipped with the right tools from the staff, the parent body and the environment which is what makes it hard to discipline a class in an ideal manner. Fair enough. Thing is that every school will have some or all these issues to some degree. Perhaps the schools you have experience with do tend to suffer from these more then other schools. But, at the end of the day, you are a teacher, an educator. And just the same way you teach the children math or science or chumash, it's also an educator's job to nurture the child as a whole, and not do the opposite. Is that a tough job? Yes, of course. Especially since your tools are severely handicapped.
But at the end of the day, you need to know that you are not using these as an excuse for unproductive methods.

Also, as Seeker said so articulately, in a case where a child is fooling around in middle of class, it may be ok to use this method. At a reasonable age, and within a reasonable time slot. Again it depends on the situation, and on the child. There really are no blanket solutions when it comes to educating precious children. I don't think it's a "never" situation. It just needs to be used with thought and vision of what this is accomplishing.

And then you say you don't have time, energy, space to teach such things, make such decisions. I totally hear you and get you. I taught and I know what it's like to have to juggle so many responsibilities-- but my main message to you is this: try to see where YOU can improve as a teacher. And look at it, as in this is the set of circumstances in this school what decisions do I need to make to make the children grow. After all if they know their times table by heart, yet they have been hurt by us several times we have failed to do our job.

And sometimes if your circumstances are so severely handicapped, that you cannot do your job properly then maybe look for a different school with a better set of circumstances. Your main goal in teaching is to empower, and inspire students to growth. If that connot be reached, and instead you find yourself harming then it may be time to find a different setting in which you can do your job.


I am not teaching. I am not practicing law. And I am not doing accounting. I have looked into this issue. I am not enamoured by our school system, but I think sometimes the expectancies are too much and too unrealistic given the constraints

You could stick only so many kids upfront for individual attention. You can promise only so many prizes. Teachers can't keep funding these rewards parents want. They don't get paid that much. They aren't given credit cards and often must buy supplies themselves. Some parents want candy. Some parents don't.

The classrooms often have an 10 grade or more range of abilities. This is public information for some schools who choose to take one kind of evaluation test over the alternative which costs more. Classrooms are often little more than warehouses for 30% of the class. Classrooms contain emotionally disturbed, learning disabled, and difficult students along with eager and average students. Parents are often uneducated and don't see the value of higher education, so the children are not as invested as they child be. You can't minimise a parent's role in education. I know parents are overwhelmed with big families, but the schools can't be the only partner in a child's education.

Public schools have incredible data available of exactly where the students are holding. The teacher will get weekly detailed feedback of exactly what part of assignment the student has trouble with. I have data envy. Our classrooms are run like mine were in the 60s. We haven't taken advantage of advances in
pedagogy.

Since children should start learning multiplication in 2nd grade, and I specifically mentioned upper division boys who are supposed to be learning quadratic equations, perhaps that's why we are not on the same page.

I totally agree that warmth and acceptance and understanding should be tried first. But you can't teach without order in the class. There must be a consequence for bad behavior.
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:45 pm
Iymnok wrote:
Squishy, you don't get it. You are looking for an alternative punishment.
A good teacher tries to find what the child needs instead of looking for punishments.
My son is 5. His rebbi saw that punishing or telling him off didn't work, so he sat him right next to his desk and gave him more attention. He now behaves much better.
There is something wrong with the teacher if they need to keep finding punishments. That is not chinuch. The teacher's job is to teach the kids, if a child isn't getting it, they neeld to reevaluate their methods.


You son is a baby. At that age they are eager to please. You don't tell off a 5 year old! I don't know what the rebbe was thinking, but he needs to be told off. I sincerely hope you don't think I am advocating punishing 5 year olds.

I thought I was clear I was speaking of older students.
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cnc









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:50 pm
Squishy wrote:
I am not teaching. I am not practicing law. And I am not doing accounting. I have looked into this issue. I am not enamoured by our school system, but I think sometimes the expectancies are too much and too unrealistic given the constraints

You could stick only so many kids upfront for individual attention. You can promise only so many prizes. Teachers can't keep funding these rewards parents want. They don't get paid that much. They aren't given credit cards and often must buy supplies themselves. Some parents want candy. Some parents don't.

The classrooms often have an 10 grade or more range of abilities. This is public information for some schools who choose to take one kind of evaluation test over the alternative which costs more. Classrooms are often little more than warehouses for 30% of the class. Classrooms contain emotionally disturbed, learning disabled, and difficult students along with eager and average students. Parents are often uneducated and don't see the value of higher education, so the children are not as invested as they child be. You can't minimise a parent's role in education. I know parents are overwhelmed with big families, but the schools can't be the only partner in a child's education.

Public schools have incredible data available of exactly where the students are holding. The teacher will get weekly detailed feedback of exactly what part of assignment the student has trouble with. I have data envy. Our classrooms are run like mine were in the 60s. We haven't taken advantage of advances in
pedagogy.

Since children should start learning multiplication in 2nd grade, and I specifically mentioned upper division boys who are supposed to be learning quadratic equations, perhaps that's why we are not on the same page.

I totally agree that warmth and acceptance and understanding should be tried first. But you can't teach without order in the class. There must be a consequence for bad behavior.


I don't think anyone is advocating no consequences for bad behavior. They're simply saying that denying recess is an inappropriate consequence. I don't feel that recess is a privilege or luxury. Ten or fifteen minutes of free time / stretching your legs for every three or so hours of learning is vital and necessary and should not be taken away in order for the teacher to control the classroom. There are other more effective methods. Worse comes to worse the child can be sent out if they're severely misbehaving. I think that's better than losing recess.
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InnerMe









  


Post  Thu, Dec 07 2017, 5:57 pm
Squishy wrote:
I am not teaching. I am not practicing law. And I am not doing accounting. I have looked into this issue. I am not enamoured by our school system, but I think sometimes the expectancies are too much and too unrealistic given the constraints

You could stick only so many kids upfront for individual attention. You can promise only so many prizes. Teachers can't keep funding these rewards parents want. They don't get paid that much. They aren't given credit cards and often must buy supplies themselves. Some parents want candy. Some parents don't.

The classrooms often have an 10 grade or more range of abilities. This is public information for some schools who choose to take one kind of evaluation test over the alternative which costs more. Classrooms are often little more than warehouses for 30% of the class. Classrooms contain emotionally disturbed, learning disabled, and difficult students along with eager and average students. Parents are often uneducated and don't see the value of higher education, so the children are not as invested as they child be. You can't minimise a parent's role in education. I know parents are overwhelmed with big families, but the schools can't be the only partner in a child's education.

Public schools have incredible data available of exactly where the students are holding. The teacher will get weekly detailed feedback of exactly what part of assignment the student has trouble with. I have data envy. Our classrooms are run like mine were in the 60s. We haven't taken advantage of advances in
pedagogy.

Since children should start learning multiplication in 2nd grade, and I specifically mentioned upper division boys who are supposed to be learning quadratic equations, perhaps that's why we are not on the same page.

I totally agree that warmth and acceptance and understanding should be tried first. But you can't teach without order in the class. There must be a consequence for bad behavior.


First things first. So what are you???? Come on, you can't keep on telling us what you're not, what is it that you are? And btw, I was thinking when I wrote that you may not be a teacher, but I figured if that's the case I'm addressing "you" not as in Squishy, but as in "people."

And you are right. Totally and completely right that there are stuff that need to change with certain systems in school. I wish we can pop a magic pill and have them all poof, but untill that happens were here debating this on this thread.

And really, I am really curious where you have all this info from, and how you can be so sure the exact differences between "our" schools and theirs. Of course, you don't need to answer..

And also, I do think that your'e stand on this specific recess issue is pretty reasonable. You specifically mentioned upper elementary, and also that it for a 5 minute total. I guess I just don't agree with blaming teaching methods on all outside factors but ourselves. I mean, think about it there are so many women on this thread themselves who surely teach in "those" schools. And yet, most are saying that there are other solutions. But you seem focused on the perils our the system of *those* schools.

That said- I do think that is a worthy topic of discussion. And I am all upping the education quality of our schools..

Lastly, you must be super talented. Seriously. If people think you are a lawyer. And some think you are an accountant. And some that you are teachers..that means you present with knowledge in all these areas.
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