Why is fake trief food considered Kosher?

ally

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 12:23 pm

amother wrote:

I’m not equating them. I’m saying that we have examples that kosher isn’t always as straight forward as just eating ingredient kosher things. Because that’s part of our kosher culture, it’s not unusable to question eating things that don’t look kosher. In the end of it - poseks aren’t afik making new Halacha banning ‘looks like treif’.
(In my town, the kashrut folks do make a big issue of the rules around ‘marres ayin).

I think in reality ‘looks like treif’ is a knee jerk reaction to trying to emulate g-yim.

Dairy bread needs a siman because there is a concern you might assume it is pareve (since this is default for bread) and eat it with meat... which would be actual treife.
Nothing to do with kosher culture(?) or Maaras ayin.

penguin

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 12:23 pm

Quote:

Its like taking a non tzanua piece of clothing and adding a shell or underskirt to it to make it wearable. Its all kosher.

Yet there are those who will disagree with this statement. Think bra-like top of a gown.

A garment that is made to be provocative is only slightly less so with a shell. Particularly a skin colored shell. (I saw this recently with cutouts on chest and I had to really pick my jaw up off the floor.)

amother

Coffee

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 12:30 pm

Crown Heights Pop-Up Offers Kosher Bacon Sandwiches

Orthodox chef Yuda Schloss knows his way around bacon — lamb bacon, that is. The self-described hipster is the culinary force behind new pop-up eatery Hassid+Hipster, whose handcrafted artisanal kosher sandwiches have been generating a buzz in Crown Heights’ Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic community.

“Hasidic to me is something that’s traditional and old and hipster is something new. That’s what I try to do with everything,” said Schloss, 30, who launched the takeout-only sandwich shop from his apartment at Eastern Parkway and Albany Avenue last month.

“When I do a brisket sandwich — traditional Jewish food is brisket, and I try to bring it to the new age.”

Hassid+Hipster’s $15 pulled brisket sandwich comes topped with roasted cauliflower, charred mandarin and green onion marmalade — just one item on a constantly rotating menu that also recently included lamb ramen, duck prosciutto and quinoa dumplings.

Schloss announces his offerings and takes orders over Facebook, and then he opens his home for a few hours twice a week so that hungry Brooklynites can pick up their selections. He has more than 600 fans on Facebook and said he serves roughly 70 diners each day he is open.

“I think the Hasidic community over here, there’s such a demand now for good gourmet food, not the usual shawarma, Chinese food — everyone wants to tap into the same thing the hipster community and all the restaurants on Franklin Avenue are doing,” Schloss said. “You could say that the Jewish and Hasidic palate has expanded dramatically in the last five to 10 years.”

Schloss himself has spent nearly a decade in the food business, beginning with The Fresh Diet, a Brooklyn-based company that delivers nutritious food. His father ran Manhattan macrobiotic restaurant The Cauldron, making the meat-heavy menu at Hassid+Hipster something of a rebellion for the young cook.

But running a small business out of his home is not without its challenges, Schloss said. Because he doesn’t have a formal restaurant, Schloss can’t get a hechsher, a certificate of kosher supervision that many Orthodox diners demand as proof that their meal’s provenance and preparation adhere to strict Jewish dietary laws.

“Normally I would need it, but kosher supervision would not give it in someone’s house because they don’t observe it 24 hours a day so they don’t know what you’re doing when they’re not there,” the chef explained.

“Most of the people who buy from me know me or know someone who knows me, so they trust me…. Back in the day in Europe, everything was about trust — it wasn’t about a company that would give the stamp of approval.”

The city’s Health Department, too, said diners should be leery of an informal food establishment that is not under the city’s supervision.

“Home-based food service establishments are illegal throughout New York State. Because they are unregulated and uninspected, they may pose a health threat to diners,” the department wrote in a statement, while declining to comment on Hassid+Hipster specifically.

“Home-based restaurants are not inspected, so there is no assurance that they practice basic food safety, such as safe food handling, proper hygiene and monitoring food temperature to prevent the growth of bacteria.”

But some diners say the unique experience at Hassid+Hipster outweighs the potential health risks.

“I love his food — you can’t get anything kosher that tastes this good and fresh,” said regular Avi Marshall. “I would assume my parents wouldn’t eat here because they don’t know Yuda like I do.”

Schloss said his early accolades are making him think about opening a real restaurant in the area.

“I got people from LA and Miami saying, ‘When could you come over here and do a pop-up week over here?’ If I could continuously get that kind of reaction out of people, then I know that I have what it takes to maybe do something casual in this neighborhood,” Schloss said.

“If it’s something I think could last, maybe I’ll open up a location right in between the [hipster and Hasidic] communities and bring them together.”

CrownHeights.info.com
December 9, 2013

33055

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 12:56 pm

For some reason, fake cheese on a hamburger doesn't appeal to me, yet real chedder on a black bean burger does.

There are just some cuisines that you must mix "dairy" taste and "meat" taste to have a full rich flavor develop. Lasagna with cottage cheese without meat doesn't work. It is not something I find edible.

Certain French dishes just need facon and fake butter to build up an in depth taste.

Purists should eliminate margarine and Schlomies Pareve cheesecake.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 1:03 pm

This reminds me of when we visited my BT cousins one fall and I picked up a couple pumpkins to make fresh pumpkin soup and my cousin told me not to make it because pumpkins are g0yish. Silly

Chana Miriam S

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 1:21 pm

amother wrote:

But the packaging can be considered the siman. Right? That's why people can buy dairy english muffins, etc. The OUD on the packaging IS the siman.
So if someone is gong to apply this logic to treyf-style kosher food, well, there is the kosher labeling on the package to be your siman.

Ou would NEVER put a hechsher on bread that didn’t have a Siman itself. That would be kneged Halacha.

amother

Periwinkle

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:00 pm

pause wrote:

Huh? Can you elaborate and source this?

Masechet chullin (don't remember the exact daf) deals with the whole sugya of rov. Very complicated, but the bottom line is, if you know the majority (over 50%) is kosher, you may eat the whole set, even if you know some of them aren't (and you don't know which ones; if you know which ones, then you can't eat those). Look how shocked you were to see that- which is exactly my point, halacha isn't always what makes intuitive sense. Now, if 3 pieces of meat are sitting in front of me and I know one of then is not kosher, I probably wouldn't take the chance of eating any of them. But the fact remains that I could eat all of them and I would not have transgressed halacha in any way.

dancingqueen

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:06 pm

Squishy wrote:

For some reason, fake cheese on a hamburger doesn't appeal to me, yet real chedder on a black bean burger does.

.

Because fake cheese is gross.

33055

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:07 pm

amother wrote:

I was at a shuir when the speaker mentioned this recently.

sima

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:15 pm

It's kosher so there is nothing wrong with it. Maybe it's visual issue or something that bothers the op since well a fake cheeseburger does look pretty much like the real think.....
idk I'd have no problems with eating it or my kids eating any of these things.

naturalmom5

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 3:16 pm

amother wrote:

This reminds me of when we visited my BT cousins one fall and I picked up a couple pumpkins to make fresh pumpkin soup and my cousin told me not to make it because pumpkins are g0yish. Silly

Why aren't there hugs on this thread...
This post desperately needs a hug..

SpottedBanana

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 5:15 pm

OP, I want to validate you by saying that some halachos have a discernible "spirit" aka ta'am -- for example, one of the ta'amim for not eating chametz on Pesach is for our diets then to comprise lighter, less processed foods like fruit and veggies (ETA: to be more "free" and not "weighed down"). Therefore, there is maybe "something" to refraining from kosher l'Pesach pizza and potato starch cake. However, while there are ta'amim to basar b'chalav, they are symbolic and not related to the taste of the food AFAIK. Either way, these halachos are chukim and thus no one is getting any aveiros by using pareve whip or KLP muffin mix.

Last edited by SpottedBanana on Mon, Dec 11 2017, 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 5:55 pm

andrea levy wrote:

Ou would NEVER put a hechsher on bread that didn’t have a Siman itself. That would be kneged Halacha.

Really? I have to confess I keep cholov yisroel so I've never bought the mainstream brand breads/ bagels/ english muffins that that are certified kosher dairy. I don't know what sort of siman might or might not be on the bread itself. But I seem to remember my husband telling me he learned that the bag with the hechsher on it could stand as the siman.

Miri7

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 6:44 pm

Personally, I like that there are so many options for the kosher-keeping person these days. My DH and kids love beef fry on a burger (I prefer cartelized onions). I also love having good pareve ice cream and almond milk in my coffee after a nice meat shabbat lunch. DH found a good soy cheese that melts nicely on a burger. We are 100% kosher and are very happy that we have so many nice options.

My kids know that it's not what the food looks like that makes it kosher - it's just the ingredients and preparation. Also, these days there are so many parve ice creams, cheeses, nut and other milks, etc that I don't think that it's so jarring anymore to see "milk" that isn't dairy, etc. Goodness knows we have enough restrictions without adding any more.

You can do your own thing in your house, but I'd refrain from imposing this on others.

amother

Tan

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 6:57 pm

amother wrote:

a lot of these products are marked dairy because of dairy equipment, but they don’t actually contain dairy in the ingredients.

ra_mom

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 7:36 pm

amother wrote:

This reminds me of when we visited my BT cousins one fall and I picked up a couple pumpkins to make fresh pumpkin soup and my cousin told me not to make it because pumpkins are g0yish. Silly

Oy!

pause

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 8:17 pm

amother wrote:

Nope. Halacha is that siman must be on/in the bread itself.

penguin

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 9:18 pm

Quote:

DH found a good soy cheese that melts nicely on a burger

Oy please tell me which one, I am desperate for a decent pareve cheese (due to intolerance - I'm not even putting it on a burger)!

As for English Muffins, I believe that they're different enough from regular bread. Or, if you bake dairy croissants for Shavuos you're good because regular bread is not that shape.

imasoftov

Mon, Dec 11 2017, 9:55 pm

amother wrote:

This reminds me of when we visited my BT cousins one fall and I picked up a couple pumpkins to make fresh pumpkin soup and my cousin told me not to make it because pumpkins are g0yish. Silly

A cover of Linus, an Italian magazine focused on comics

Raisin

Tue, Dec 12 2017, 4:24 am

penguin wrote:

Quote:

DH found a good soy cheese that melts nicely on a burger

yes, I think english muffins and so on are different enough.

I don't get when I see challah and bagel recipes that contain butter and milk! (from Jewish but not frum websites or cookbooks) Challa and bagels are traditionally pareve. Plus people might actually decide to make a pastrami sandwich with a bagel.

I'm used to croissants being dairy. Also scones. So I would check if they are pareve or dairy.