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Gender identity confusion is not hardwired into the brain
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:09 pm
amother wrote:
I’m not playing a what if game with you.

The American reporting over the law change (at the time bill) in Ontario was overblown. That’s it. Without understanding of the charter of rights and freedoms in Canada, it’s really difficult to comment on any of the changes.


Without understanding Canadian law, it is difficult to say whether the reporting was overblown; however, we still have the back peddling.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:15 pm
southernbubby wrote:
It's more than that, Squishy. One of the 2 transgenders that I know personally was counseled by a therapist to say that she wanted to be a boy. She was, and still is, a teenager. The child was suicidal and the parents were exhausted by night vigils, but they had also been big LBGT advocates and marched in the pride parades. Somehow, this problem child became an overnight hero by transitioning medically and because the child is now very flat-chested, probably surgically, and now has become the victim that the liberal mom is fighting for. She published an article somewhere that got some comments that the mother was milking this transition for all it was worth. People who read her article online called her out on it and saw through it but her liberal friends and relatives believe her to be the heroic mother who advocates for her child. Would she be such a superhero media mother if she had gotten her child therapy to cope with gender dysphoria rather than transitioning?

So yes, Squishy, we are polite, respectful and HORRIFIED


It seems almost like MSBP. There probably is a name for a syndrome when your kids become props for your online acclamation.

At the very least, her daughter deserves privacy.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:16 pm
amother wrote:
There is now evidence that biochemically s-x and gender don’t always match up. If you are a person for which this is a reality, all therapy will do is help with coping.


Which is not a bad thing for a kid to do through maturity, to make the most informed decision possible.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:19 pm
southernbubby wrote:
She did say that identical twins would both be transgender if it were hardwired into the brain, leaving the listener to imagine that there was a case where one twin was transgender and the other was not.


She says that, but she doesn't state any support for it.

First of all, studies show that identical twins are more likely to both be transgender than other twins, or other siblings; but that having one transgender sibling does make it more likely that another will be transgender.[/quote]

I don't pretend to understand it all, but see http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/bib......html

In fact, another study claims to have found unique factors that make a brain "transgender." https://www.scientificamerican.....rain/ (concluding, "Overall the weight of these studies and others points strongly toward a biological basis for gender dysphoria. But given the variety of transgender people and the variation in the brains of men and women generally, it will be a long time, if ever, before a doctor can do a brain scan on a child and say, “Yes, this child is trans.”)

This certainly is a lot more persuasive to me than a person with an admitted bias stating, without support, that no such differences exist.

southernbubby wrote:
Politically conservative physicians may also feel that they should take a medically conservative approach. To me, removing a person's reproductive organs or giving them potentially harmful hormones, when a less invasive approach to help them accept their birth gender could be successful, would be a medically conservative as well as politically conservative approach.


I certainly don't think that surgery is the first, or even a quick, answer. I do understand, however, the concept of using hormones to delay the onset of puberty while an adolescent deals with these issues.

The real answer, for me, is that it is so far out of my realm of experience that I cannot judge.

southernbubby wrote:
She was not talking about birth defects of the reproductive system that produce ambiguous genitalia; she was talking about phenotypical males and females who are born fully one physical gender or another.


But she denied that anyone else existed. Anyone with a Y is male. Anyone without isn't. Period. Full stop. No recognition of anything else. How can you trust someone's scientific conclusions when they make such a basic error?

southernbubby wrote:
While we can't say that true transgenders don't exist, no one can answer why there seem to be lots more of them today. When I went to public school as a kid, it just didn't happen.

What would be wrong with doctors first trying to help a child accept his biological gender, except that it is not the politically popular thing to do now?

The 2 transgenders that I know personally are now media darlings on Facebook because they are society's victims and doctors who advocate for therapy to help avoid all of these surgeries and hormones are now branded as haters!


Well, I think that there are more transgendered people now because our society has started to recognize them. But they (allegedly) existed throughout history. See, eg, https://www.ranker.com/list/tr.....ashby (although I'm very suspect of the inclusion of Joan of Arc, and recognize that Ranker isn't exactly the gold standard of sources.)

In any case, I doubt that most people would want to be transgender. Imagine being stared at. Questioned. Having political candidates scream from the dais that you shouldn't be allowed to use a public restroom. Equated with child molesters.

As to therapy, I'm sure that we're thinking of different things. You're a good person. You're thinking of the type of therapy we all recommend to people here who have problems. And someone with gender dysphoria should certainly have that type of therapy! But that's not what people object to . The techniques therapists have used to try to change s-xual orientation and gender identity (conversion therapy) include inducing nausea, vomiting, or paralysis while showing the patient homoerotic images, and providing electric shocks. Its cruel and its dangerous and it doesn't work. And THAT is what is banned, not traditional therapy.

I do worry that we are pathologizing normal childhood behaviors at times. Little Jimmy wants to grow his hair long and wear dresses and play with dolls? Enjoy yourself, Jimmy. I don't even care if you use the girls room. Let's just not diagnose. Plenty of time for that.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:22 pm
but back to this doctor and her point of view,

why is allowing the child to transition a better choice than to help the child cope with their born gender?

It is also very hard to determine what effect that transitioning has on suicide rates because if the person was suicidal before surgery, can surgery stop this from happening or can surgery and medical treatment cause the person to commit suicide? Statistics don't even matter that much because a person who committed suicide as a result of transitioning maybe not be the statistical average but still shows that transitioning is not a simple cut and dried solution.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:28 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Well, I think that there are more transgendered people now because our society has started to recognize them. But they (allegedly) existed throughout history. See, eg, https://www.ranker.com/list/tr.....ashby (although I'm very suspect of the inclusion of Joan of Arc, and recognize that Ranker isn't exactly the gold standard of sources.)

In any case, I doubt that most people would want to be transgender. Imagine being stared at. Questioned. Having political candidates scream from the dais that you shouldn't be allowed to use a public restroom. Equated with child molesters.

As to therapy, I'm sure that we're thinking of different things. You're a good person. You're thinking of the type of therapy we all recommend to people here who have problems. And someone with gender dysphoria should certainly have that type of therapy! But that's not what people object to . The techniques therapists have used to try to change s-xual orientation and gender identity (conversion therapy) include inducing nausea, vomiting, or paralysis while showing the patient homoerotic images, and providing electric shocks. Its cruel and its dangerous and it doesn't work. And THAT is what is banned, not traditional therapy.

I do worry that we are pathologizing normal childhood behaviors at times. Little Jimmy wants to grow his hair long and wear dresses and play with dolls? Enjoy yourself, Jimmy. I don't even care if you use the girls room. Let's just not diagnose. Plenty of time for that.


I remember one extremely effeminate boy in high school and we all thought of him as gay although today, he might identify as transgender since he seemed so much more "female" than the average gay man. The boys all avoided him and the girls all loved him and considered him one of us. It would have been very easy to make a female out of him. He also never came out as gay or showed an interest in boys so maybe he really was transgender but at that point in time, transitioning was almost never done and was never done at all on children.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:33 pm
Squishy wrote:
It seems almost like MSBP. There probably is a name for a syndrome when your kids become props for your online acclamation.

At the very least, her daughter deserves privacy.


I really think that there is an element of MSBP as well as the fact that the child seems to have an ASD.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:33 pm
southernbubby wrote:
but back to this doctor and her point of view,

why is allowing the child to transition a better choice than to help the child cope with their born gender?

It is also very hard to determine what effect that transitioning has on suicide rates because if the person was suicidal before surgery, can surgery stop this from happening or can surgery and medical treatment cause the person to commit suicide? Statistics don't even matter that much because a person who committed suicide as a result of transitioning maybe not be the statistical average but still shows that transitioning is not a simple cut and dried solution.


Ok, I'll bite. But I need you to take this out of the 5ex organs sphere and think more globally.

If my teenager was suicidal over some part of their body that could be corrected with medication or surgery, I may likely support them in resolving this with medication or surgery- whatever would work well.

And I think you would probably do the same. If your child had an unsightly birthmark or a 11th finger or a third breast or some other cosmetic condition and she was actually suicidal over it, I'd hope you'd not just insist on helping her cope with it. I'd hope you'd consider surgery as well. As a parent, I'd hope you'd consider whatever your child needs and not rule anything out just because some segments of society might look down on you for that.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:36 pm
marina wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. But I need you to take this out of the 5ex organs sphere and think more globally.

If my teenager was suicidal over some part of their body that could be corrected with medication or surgery, I may likely support them in resolving this with medication or surgery- whatever would work well.

And I think you would probably do the same. If your child had an unsightly birthmark or a 11th finger or a third breast or some other cosmetic condition and she was actually suicidal over it, I'd hope you'd not just insist on helping her cope with it. I'd hope you'd consider surgery as well. As a parent, I'd hope you'd consider whatever your child needs and not rule anything out just because some segments of society might look down on you for that.


Removing an extra digit is not the equivalent of removing the child's entire reproductive system. Please don't equate a complete removal of several organs with removal of a birthmark or repair of a cleft lip or any other cosmetic issue. This is very major surgery and very life altering and health altering.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:37 pm
My nephew is a transgender young adult and, really, the stereotypes you are all spouting simply do not apply to him or his parents. They came reluctantly for the journey, but accepted him in the end. He is not an activist or out to change opinions or be in your face or anything like that. Instead he is just shy and quiet and would like just to be able to live his life in peace.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:41 pm
marina wrote:
My nephew is a transgender young adult and, really, the stereotypes you are all spouting simply do not apply to him or his parents. They came reluctantly for the journey, but accepted him in the end. He is not an activist or out to change opinions or be in your face or anything like that. Instead he is just shy and quiet and would like just to be able to live his life in peace.



I am not stereotyping this person as the image of the parent of a transgender. I am talking about what happened in this scenario and why it might have been the wrong approach or why there may have been a better approach. There have been transgenders from very frum families who obviously were not LGBT activists.

Your nephew should live his life in peace but my point to all of this is that ripping off organs or chemical castration might not be the only approach that should be considered.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:43 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Removing an extra digit is not the equivalent of removing the child's entire reproductive system. Please don't equate a complete removal of several organs with removal of a birthmark or repair of a cleft lip or any other cosmetic issue. This is very major surgery and very life altering and health altering.


If you're looking for more invasive surgery than removing a blemish, just use your imagination. People get very invasive surgery to be taller, to lose weight, to cure anxiety, etc. It is not really all that different.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:47 pm
marina wrote:
Ok, I'll bite. But I need you to take this out of the 5ex organs sphere and think more globally.

If my teenager was suicidal over some part of their body that could be corrected with medication or surgery, I may likely support them in resolving this with medication or surgery- whatever would work well.

And I think you would probably do the same. If your child had an unsightly birthmark or a 11th finger or a third breast or some other cosmetic condition and she was actually suicidal over it, I'd hope you'd not just insist on helping her cope with it. I'd hope you'd consider surgery as well. As a parent, I'd hope you'd consider whatever your child needs and not rule anything out just because some segments of society might look down on you for that.


Interesting.

There's a thread about a teen with a lot of facial hair, who wants to have it removed via electrolysis or laser, but the family can't afford it. People have insisted that this is important. They family must find the money lest the young woman feel bad about herself. They've gone so far as to suggest that the person who performs these procedures should do so for free, or at a reduced cost, given its importance.

No one suggested conversion therapy to make this young woman accept her body as it is.

Because removal of hair is accepted, but gender dysphoria is not.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:48 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I am not stereotyping this person as the image of the parent of a transgender. I am talking about what happened in this scenario and why it might have been the wrong approach or why there may have been a better approach. There have been transgenders from very frum families who obviously were not LGBT activists.

Your nephew should live his life in peace but my point to all of this is that ripping off organs or chemical castration might not be the only approach that should be considered.


Do you really imagine that these decisions are done lightly most of the time? Really?
Have you looked at the prerequisites for gender reassignment surgery online?

I don't even know why we are talking about children, I don't know of any place that will do a reassignment surgery until after 18. This kind of surgery is pretty much the last stop for those who undergo it.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:50 pm
marina wrote:
If you're looking for more invasive surgery than removing a blemish, just use your imagination. People get very invasive surgery to be taller, to lose weight, to cure anxiety, etc. It is not really all that different.


Bariatric surgery is not as invasive as removing one's reproductive organs. Bilateral mastectomy is not nearly as invasive but male to female transitioning also involves the urinary tract. I am not sure what type of surgery could make a person taller unless it was the correction of a spinal abnormality and anxiety is usually not cured by surgery but if you know an operation for that tell me because a lot of anxious people here may be interested.

It is also permanent. Removal of a young person's gonads is forever and if they ever change their mind, they can't be replaced. There are uterine transplants and IVF if a woman ever decides to stop living as a man but that requires anti-rejection drugs for as long as the uterus is in her body.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:50 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I am not stereotyping this person as the image of the parent of a transgender. I am talking about what happened in this scenario and why it might have been the wrong approach or why there may have been a better approach. There have been transgenders from very frum families who obviously were not LGBT activists.

Your nephew should live his life in peace but my point to all of this is that ripping off organs or chemical castration might not be the only approach that should be considered.


Why do you think that it is?

Contrary to that ridiculous article, no one wakes up one morning, decides he's transgender, and has surgery -- or even hormone therapy -- scheduled for next week. Its a long process, and almost certainly even longer before the person reaches that point.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:51 pm
marina wrote:
Do you really imagine that these decisions are done lightly most of the time? Really?
Have you looked at the prerequisites for gender reassignment surgery online?

I don't even know why we are talking about children, I don't know of any place that will do a reassignment surgery until after 18. This kind of surgery is pretty much the last stop for those who undergo it.


No, I realize that it is not taken lightly but in European countries the earliest that a doctor will consider it is age 21. Don't you think that 18 is a bit young to make that decision?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:51 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
You should also be aware that ACPeds has been listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, for "propagating damaging falsehoods about LGBT people".

Um, the SPLC is a hate group. The SPLC has long since been discredited as a responsible actor. Journalist Ken Silverstein investigated them in 2010, calling them "essentially a fraud," and virtually no MSM outlet will cite their "hate group" list because of their lack of standards. So this is kind of like saying, "The KKK has come out against the NAACP."

However, pediatricians have no business treating people with gender dysphoria. Based on our current knowledge (or lack thereof), puberty blockers and/or hormone treatments should not be administered to minors. It appears that a majority of children who identify as the opposite gender grow out of it during adolescence. The New Atlantis

Alice Dreger's book, Galileo's Middle Finger, describes how research in the fields of intersex medical interventions and transsexualism has been shut down by transgender activists because it doesn't always fit the desired political narrative. As Blaire White, whom I referenced on another thread, once said, "I am a man who is living his life as a woman because medicine doesn't have any better options for me right now."

In other words, a lifetime of hormones and surgeries is not a treatment. It's a stop-gap patching of the symptoms -- like taking an antihistamine so you can go to work with a bad cold. If we were really as compassionate as we pretend to be, we would avoid glamourizing gender dysphoria; be rigorous in its diagnosis; and be fearless in finding a cure.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:53 pm
southernbubby wrote:
No, I realize that it is not taken lightly but in European countries the earliest that a doctor will consider it is age 21. Don't you think that 18 is a bit young to make that decision?


If you're old enough to die for your country, you're old enough to make other decisions about your body as well.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2017, 2:57 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Why do you think that it is?

Contrary to that ridiculous article, no one wakes up one morning, decides he's transgender, and has surgery -- or even hormone therapy -- scheduled for next week. Its a long process, and almost certainly even longer before the person reaches that point.


I don't think that anyone makes a snap decision but I do think that doctors today are quicker to agree to puberty blockers than they were a decade or two ago and that if the doctor has a liberal rather than a conservative outlook, this could be plan A rather than counseling, group therapy, and other conservative types of therapy.

In the case of Jazz Jennings (not her birth name), she was consistently regarding herself as female from toddler-hood, even though she was born male. The parents explored all of their options and it was determined that it was true dysphoria. I am not sure what would have happened if a more conservative pediatric specialist would have advocated a different approach but this child has been on puberty blockers for years and will eventually fully transition. This child is sometimes very sad and moody apparently so it has not been a cake walk in the park.
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