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Forum -> Children's Health -> Toilet Training
Should I tell 3 yr old son what his p---s is called?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:51 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
We may not always be aware of the shaylos to ask...

Again, there must be a reason why seforim use euphemisms.
????? so then its not asked? you arent missing something that was never missing in the first place.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:53 am
Seas wrote:
Momnyg8 and amother are right. We go by what we were taught by Chazal and all the seforim of our mesorah, and they all use euphemisms.

As an aside, the Rambam explains that Loshon Hakodesh is thusly called (the 'holy' tongue), because it doesn't have specific words for private parts or intimacy. Just the words ervah which is a general term for a covered part, and intimacy is called 'sleeping with'.

There are other Rishonim who disagree with the premise that that is the reason for the name, but not with the concept that refraining from being specific in areas of tznius is in fact part of being holy.
Many times in our lives things change and we dont always follow what the sfarim say. This is one example where many many many many many people are not using uephamisms and havent for some time.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:54 am
amother wrote:
I don't think that it is standard in Lakewood to use the word peni$.

I don't see what's wrong with calling it front tushy
because it isnt a tushy. you are teaching your child a name for something that it is not :/ simple as that.
before calling it a front tushy, id call it a eurethra (We call it pen1s, but just saying)
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RebekahsMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 8:05 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Im sorry but any institution that finds the word pen1s to be a dirty word, something is very very very wrong. Our body parts are NOT dirty words. And please dont ever make your child think that they are.

Also, you wrote, in a different reply, that you only tell your child at 6 or 7 whats what. Im going to venture to say that they probably learn, from other kids, before that, whats what.


I had 2 friends that learned about periods the hard way. One heard of them and asked her mother what it was around 9 years old. Mom was unprepared.

The second was my next door neighbor- hers started at (yikes!) 8 or 9 yrs old. She thought she was dying. Slightly different situation, but definitely shows that kids sometimes need to know from their parents before they find out on their own.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 8:27 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Ok, I would like someone to call their local Orthodox Rabbi and ask if you are allowed to use the words p*nis or v*gina when explaining body parts to your child.

I just did (YU musmach). I read him the above word for word, I just told him I saw it on the internet, not where, in case you're worried about compromising the sanctity of this site, and after first asking me if this was a serious question - I told him that I had no reason to believe otherwise - he told me to say that not only is it muttar, but God will love you for doing so.
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petiteruchy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 10:59 am
This isn't all or nothing, you know. Children should have basic biological information about their bodies, and learning how to use that information correctly is a great chinuch opportunity.

My girls know the correct names for all of their anatomy. It has been extremely helpful at times that they can accurately describe what hurts or is bothering them (diagnosing a yeast infection, explaining how to care for themselves, etc).

However, just because they know the names doesn't mean they run around screaming vulva and labia at the top of their lungs... and if they were ever to do so, I'd deal with it the same way I deal with any rude or inappropriate behavior.

In daily, casual use, they often refer to their "private parts" and don't get technical until there's a need. When talking more generally, I also do so ("why do we need to wear underwear in the house? because we cover our private areas!") etc.

Now, some people seem to be thinking of this as an embarrassment issue. Like, if I teach my child the word aiver, he'll definitely one day say it loudly at the grocery store. To which I say, yes, maybe. Raising children means you will have to deal with many possibly embarrassing moments, such as your daughter announcing how fat someone is, or (absolutely true story) loudly interrogating a wheelchair bound man about whether he can feel his legs and then proceeding to step heavily on his foot to test it! I would rather have 10 boys obsessed with discussing their penises than live through that horrifying moment again.
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:04 pm
Seas, body parts are not nivul peh. They have names in lashon ha kodesh because body parts are kodesh! Aiver and mekor mean exactly what pea nis and vulva mean. Nothing menuval about it.
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:06 pm
The fact that you can look your kid in the eye and say "that's your pea nis" without flinching or being uncomfortable makes your kid comfortable and confident about his body. This makes him better able to identify inappropriate boundaries and to speak up should someone cross them.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 8:13 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Many times in our lives things change and we dont always follow what the sfarim say. This is one example where many many many many many people are not using uephamisms and havent for some time.


Then many many many many many many people are not acting in a Torah way, and haven't for some time.

We study the words of Chazal according to the understanding of the rishonim and the chachmei hamesorah in order to know what the Torah expects from us and how Hashem wants us to behave.

This is true not only for explicit halachos but even for our attitudes. We don't change our attitudes or values simply because modern day culture is different.

BTW my husband told me that the Magen Abraham (156) brings a psak that when talking about an egg in Hebrew one should say ביעא (the Aramaic word), because ביצה is a more vulgar word (as it also means testes).

Other poskim disagree, and claim that there is no difference between the one language and another, but no one argues against the premise that it's preferable to use a less explicit word.
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Amalia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 8:25 pm
imasoftov wrote:
I just did (YU musmach). I read him the above word for word, I just told him I saw it on the internet, not where, in case you're worried about compromising the sanctity of this site, and after first asking me if this was a serious question - I told him that I had no reason to believe otherwise - he told me to say that not only is it muttar, but God will love you for doing so.


Dear imasoftov,

I did not read the whole thread, I just opened it on the last page and saw your post: thank you for actually asking the question, because these types of threads seem to consist of arguments going on forever and forever and leading nowhere.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 10:05 pm
farm wrote:
The fact that you can look your kid in the eye and say "that's your pea nis" without flinching or being uncomfortable makes your kid comfortable and confident about his body. This makes him better able to identify inappropriate boundaries and to speak up should someone cross them.


I think that this makes sense in theory, but I very emphatically disagree that it is the case as a generalized rule. There are too many other factors at play.

It makes me curious though. Those who favor using accurate terminology for this reason. Did you grow up hearing euphemisms, and feel you inherited a sense of bodily shame?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 10:42 pm
farm wrote:
... pea nis ...

Sounds like an insult spelled that way.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 11:33 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
And if he says “ x touched my peepee”?

As long as it’s a word that can pretty much be universally understood, then it’s fjne.

I personally don’t want my kids yelling about their p-nises in middle of the supermarket, so I don’t teach them the word till about 6-7. I think that’s perfectly fine.


Exactly the same as above
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amother
Silver


 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 12:36 am
amother wrote:
First of all, this is not a frum thing. Pretty much the entire world has been using euphemisms for genitals up until relatively recently.

It sounds like there are two main arguments for using correct anatomical terms with young children.

One, so that if a child is sxually abused, they’ll have the words to describe what happened. I can see how certain words, like “cookie” would create confusion. But I’d think that a word like “privates” should be pretty clear.

And two, so the child doesn’t assume that euphemisms are used because the genitals are shameful.

I’ve heard similar arguments addressed to tzniyus rules. Those who misunderstand tzniyus think that we cover up because we are ashamed of our bodies.

That is wrong, and should not be the message that our children pick up.

I would happily teach my children the correct anatomical words for genitals, because I want them to have information. But using those words in speech referring specifically to my child’s genitals seems intrusive.

We hint and euphemize and cover things that are special, not shameful.


No one calls cancer "yenna machla" because it's special. Euphemisms are an avoidance tactic and create a sense of shame.

Of course we want to keep our speech refined. There's a reason there are ads for products to relieve "feminine itching." Just like Jews, most members (no pun intended!) of larger society keep private things private. But there are many good reasons for using correct terminology, and they should outweigh whatever squeamishness someone might feel.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 8:47 am
amother wrote:
No one calls cancer "yenna machla" because it's special. Euphemisms are an avoidance tactic and create a sense of shame.

Of course we want to keep our speech refined. There's a reason there are ads for products to relieve "feminine itching." Just like Jews, most members (no pun intended!) of larger society keep private things private. But there are many good reasons for using correct terminology, and they should outweigh whatever squeamishness someone might feel.


The cancer thing is not about shame, but fear, maybe mixed with superstition. We also say "oso ha'ish" and yoshke, which is not shame either.

Lehavdil, we say "Hashem", the Name. Even Hashem's name when we actually say it in davening is not His name, it's a description of His relationship to us (our Master, etc.)

Speaking in third person is a universally accepted show of respect, across languages and cultures.

We don't address our parents by name, or teachers, or malchus, etc.

So clearly, it's incorrect to say that not naming something directly is *always* about shame or discomfort.

And, not naming our children's anatomy by the correct name is also not *always* about shame or discomfort or squeamishness.

Some parents may choose this as a way of conveying a sense of respect.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 9:43 am
Op here. I decided to go along the lines of the posters who wait until 6-7 (or whenever he asks, if it's earlier than that) to tell their kids p-nis
For now it's peepee.
Thanks for all your input.
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amother
Chartreuse


 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 11:55 am
amother wrote:
Op here. I decided to go along the lines of the posters who wait until 6-7 (or whenever he asks, if it's earlier than that) to tell their kids p-nis
For now it's peepee.
Thanks for all your input.
ironically, I also find peepee inappropriate. Like why be specific? Just call it bottom. Be general. And if you want to be specific say it’s called a pnis but we can use peepee for short. I said that to my daughter when she asked. “It’s really called vgina but lets just say bottom” and she probably long forgot the official term.
- But I’m very yeshivish so maybe that’s why the slang “peepee” doesn’t work for me
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amother
Gold


 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 12:44 pm
amother wrote:
ironically, I also find peepee inappropriate. Like why be specific? Just call it bottom. Be general. And if you want to be specific say it’s called a pnis but we can use peepee for short. I said that to my daughter when she asked. “It’s really called vgina but lets just say bottom” and she probably long forgot the official term.
- But I’m very yeshivish so maybe that’s why the slang “peepee” doesn’t work for me


Ok maybe I'll tell him it's a p-nis but he can say peepee for short.
Bottom is not accurate because that's his tush. He needs a way to distinguish between his butt and p-nis.

I ended up asking the Morah, and she said she wouldn't necessarily advise using the actual word, but use a nickname instead. I'll just follow the "minhag ," because I don't want him to stick out.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 12:49 pm
Can I just point something out here? There is nothing intrinsically better about the word bottom peepee than there is about p3nis. Words are what you make of them. They are not intrinsically good or bad. So why would you be comfortable with your kid screaming about his peepee in the supermarket, but not his p3nis?
Is Dudu a bad word?
Well in Israel it's a very popular name.
If you wouldn't load all this meaning onto an innocent word, it would just be a body part--not a reason to get all giggly and scream it in the supermarket.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 12:52 pm
heidi wrote:
Can I just point something out here? There is nothing intrinsically better about the word bottom peepee than there is about p3nis. Words are what you make of them. They are not intrinsically good or bad. So why would you be comfortable with your kid screaming about his peepee in the supermarket, but not his p3nis?
Is Dudu a bad word?
Well in Israel it's a very popular name.
If you wouldn't load all this meaning onto an innocent word, it would just be a body part--not a reason to get all giggly and scream it in the supermarket.


I hear you. Not sure how I'll go about it. Maybe I will tell him pnis after all.
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