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My theory about transgender issues in this generation
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:04 pm
So this is something I have been mulling over for a few years and with transgender threads on here at the moment I thought I'd put it "out there" and see what you all say.

There is no doubt that there have always been people with confusing s*x organs. On the physical side, the Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, for example, often talks about the halachic obligations of Androgynous (person with male and female organs), and the tumtum (person with no clear organs). On the emotional side, OTOH, Yosef HaTzaddik is described by the Midrash as being originally female, (and I THINK Dinah originally male,) but then Yosef was changed to male in the womb. But he always had "a bit of a female streak to him" (hope it's ok to say it like that!) in the sense that he was always concerned with his appearance and is described as being beautiful to look at.

Now- in the beginning of time, Adam HaRishon was actually created male and female as one (I believe the transgender community often quote that possuk). So it is any wonder that as we get closer and closer to Moshiach, the lines between male and female are becoming more and more blurred?

Sometimes it comes out in a kosher / positive way. The rise of feminism. Women learning Torah and working outside the home. Men being more involved in parenting than they ever were in the past.

Sometimes it comes out in a pareve way. The rise of the number of females with autism. (Applying the Sacha Baron Cohen idea that autism is like an extreme male gene).

Sometimes it comes out in a very not kosher way. Loud, we deserve our RIGHTS and we want it al over the news style trangendering.

But all are merely us getting back closer and closer to that first Adam, that zchar unekeivah bara otam.

Ok imamothers- what do you think of that?
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:10 pm
Interesting theory.

But, if you really believe this, why is it not kosher for transgender people to want equal rights? According to your theory, they're not mentally ill or sick or crazy or all in their head; you're recognizing that it's a real phenomenon that a person feels like the opposite gender, and are justifying it with Torah sources. So why is it a problem for them to want equal rights like the people who aren't as close to Moshiach's times yet?
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:28 pm
Maya wrote:
Interesting theory.

But, if you really believe this, why is it not kosher for transgender people to want equal rights? According to your theory, they're not mentally ill or sick or crazy or all in their head; you're recognizing that it's a real phenomenon that a person feels like the opposite gender, and are justifying it with Torah sources. So why is it a problem for them to want equal rights like the people who aren't as close to Moshiach's times yet?


As I was writing it out I was wondering the same thing.

I guess because the Torah is still Emet and still doesn't allow this?

Not sure. It's a good point.

Quite happy for someone explain why the whole idea is garbage as well.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:29 pm
Interesting theory. But in my opinion gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Simple as that. A sad and painful mental illness.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:32 pm
amother wrote:
As I was writing it out I was wondering the same thing.

I guess because the Torah is still Emet and still doesn't allow this?

Not sure. It's a good point.

Quite happy for someone explain why the whole idea is garbage as well.

You think the Torah doesn't allow it, yet you're bringing Torah sources to prove it's okay.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:32 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
Interesting theory. But in my opinion gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Simple as that. A sad and painful mental illness.


I tend to agree. But it seems to be particularly common in recent times, where it wasn't before.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:35 pm
amother wrote:
I tend to agree. But it seems to be particularly common in recent times, where it wasn't before.


That’s because it has become fashionable. Immorality is applauded these days.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:36 pm
amother wrote:
I tend to agree. But it seems to be particularly common in recent times, where it wasn't before.

How can you be so sure? I think it's not more common, simply more publicly spoken about.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 7:36 pm
Maya wrote:
You think the Torah doesn't allow it, yet you're bringing Torah sources to prove it's okay.


It doesn't allow transitioning AFAIK.

When I say it's "ok", I mean it is ok that a person may live in an ambiguous gender state.

Like I said- happy for someone to tear the theory to shreds.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 9:43 pm
My theory is that these are first world issues. When you have nothing else to worry about, you create new problems. No one in North Korea or Somalia is worrying about how they really feel and what they really want and maybe they aren't who they really think they are.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 9:47 pm
amother wrote:
My theory is that these are first world issues. When you have nothing else to worry about, you create new problems. No one in North Korea or Somalia is worrying about how they really feel and what they really want and maybe they aren't who they really think they are.


Totally false. It’s also not a worry - its not an intellectual excersise. It’s a strong pervasive feeling.
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browser




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 11:16 pm
It's a very interesting theory.
Ain Chadash tachas hashamesh

But on a physical level, there are estrogens everywhere. Conventional dairy is hormone soup. Then don't forget meat, chicken and eggs, plastics. Soy in everything
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 11:17 pm
Maya wrote:
How can you be so sure? I think it's not more common, simply more publicly spoken about.


Certain conditions, such as ASD, appear to be more common and the transgender people that I know personally also have spectrum disorders. I am wondering if there is a higher incidence of gender dysphoria in ASD individuals.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 12 2017, 11:21 pm
browser wrote:
It's a very interesting theory.
Ain Chadash tachas hashamesh

But on a physical level, there are estrogens everywhere. Conventional dairy is hormone soup. Then don't forget meat, chicken and eggs, plastics. Soy in everything



Could be related but studies would have to compare populations in a number of ways to get a better idea of a cause.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 1:56 am
I have every sympathy with people who have genuine gender dysphoria.

However - my theory is that it's more prevalent because it's become a "THING".

My Charedi friend told me when her son was just a kid, he decided he wanted to be a girl. They put him in a dress, called him by a girl's name, and in a few days it was all over.

A pop star said that he is unbelievably glad that transition surgery wasn't so freely available when he was a teen, because for 2 of those years he was confused about his s*xuality, and it would have been a huge mistake!

If only people were allowed to just BE, without politicising and labels...
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 7:26 am
amother wrote:
My theory is that these are first world issues. When you have nothing else to worry about, you create new problems. No one in North Korea or Somalia is worrying about how they really feel and what they really want and maybe they aren't who they really think they are.

Thailand to recognize 'third gender' in new constitution: panel
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 8:20 am
imasoftov wrote:
Thailand to recognize 'third gender' in new constitution: panel


Only three? Nah, they didn't catch up yet...
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 8:21 am
imasoftov wrote:
Thailand to recognize 'third gender' in new constitution: panel


So the third gender there is basically a legal designation but since the average Thai person lives a more conservative life, he or she will probably still relate to binary gender rather than an open gender system.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 8:22 am
amother wrote:
I have every sympathy with people who have genuine gender dysphoria.

However - my theory is that it's more prevalent because it's become a "THING".

My Charedi friend told me when her son was just a kid, he decided he wanted to be a girl. They put him in a dress, called him by a girl's name, and in a few days it was all over.

A pop star said that he is unbelievably glad that transition surgery wasn't so freely available when he was a teen, because for 2 of those years he was confused about his s*xuality, and it would have been a huge mistake!

If only people were allowed to just BE, without politicising and labels...


So prevalent, in fact, that physicians who believe that the need to permanently transition in childhood is bunk, are looked at as fringe element bigots.
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shyshira




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 13 2017, 8:39 am
southernbubby wrote:
So prevalent, in fact, that physicians who believe that the need to permanently transition in childhood is bunk, are looked at as fringe element bigots.


In another thread you posted an article from the president of the American College of Pediatricians which has 500 members who would not support ‘permanently transitioning in childhood’.

Where is the article calling those doctors fringe bigots?

In the US anyway - ‘the conservative right (religious or not) are a significant segment of the population.
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