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Concern being asked to stand as a creditor for a loan



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amother
Azure


 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 10:04 am
Trying to keep it short:

DH and I married for 4 yrs (we were both divorced). I have no children. DH has children from 1st marriage, all grown up and no financial responsibilities towards them.

DH has 1 sister and 1 brother and they are a great family, I totally get along with them. However I am worrying because I have a feeling that his brother will ask us in the future to stand a creditors for loans that he probably will have to take out. Brother has 5 unmarried daughters at home, one after the other plus a son to be Bar- Mitzva this year) Oldest unmarried daughter around 24, her sister approx. 22, the rest of them spaced out between 1.5-2 yrs. Youngest daughter is 17 yrs this spring.

My BIL has been a Kollel student (avrech as we say in Israel) until approx. 3 yrs ago when he finally got out to work. He doesn’t have a great job, far from, I would say. (collecting donations and signing up new donators for a non-profit organization) Wife is a seamstress.
My SIL and her husband both working full time and they have six children at home, one of them soon to be married off (a daughter)

BIL is (in my and DH’s opinion) extremely irresponsible with money.
BIL had his own apartment which he got from parents when he was married. He sold it 3 yrs ago at a very good price. He also has another apartment, renting it out but losing money as mortgage is higher than he rent. His wife wants to live there once some of the children are married off.
BIL has this silly dream that he wants to do investments and reap huge money from it. “If you want to make money you have to invest” Until now he succeeded to invest 500,000 NIS in a high-tech company from which he is trying hard to get his money back. Project is frozen not materializing. He also invested a few yrs ago in some real estate project in Romania and in the US (I don’t know the amounts) and he is still paying off the losses. No profits, only losses. Some time ago he agreed to give a loan to someone (200,000 NIS!) and as far as I understand, no documents were signed. DH says BIL will never ever see that money again. In short: BIL wants to be this hot-shot business guy but he is in fact a gambler.

We are very frugal and live within our means, not making any shady “investments” or playing on the stock market. We live in a rented apartment but planning to buy something for ourselves in the future. DH has four apartments which he is renting out (rent very cheap, it’s a poor area in another city. This is his only income as he is not able to work due to health issues which started 2 yrs ago. I work full time. Dh and I have separate bank accounts.
I am very concerned and worried that my BIL will, at some point, turn to us and ask us to be creditors of loans that he will have to take out in order to marry off. We are probably considered to be the “wealthiest” of the family as we have no children together and DH has apartments. We are very very far from being wealthy.
I have told DH very clearly that there is no way we are going to sign any financial commitments or being creditors because BIL doesn’t know how to handle money. However this is his only living brother (oldest brother passed away some years ago) and I suspect my BIL will try to blackmail him emotionally to agree to sign things which could (G-d forbid!) destroy our financial future in case BIL won’t be able to keep up with payments.

How would you handle this delicate case? Suggestions and insights most welcome!
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 10:11 am
Just say "no". You don't have it to spare.

Offer a certain amount that you can afford towards each wedding, as a gift. That is all you can give, and stand firm.

You are not responsible for other people's poor life choices!
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 10:14 am
I would give them my maaser.
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lavenderchimes




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 10:43 am
I would give maaser to family who were really in a desparate situation, but not for some crazy investment.

OP, nothing has happened. You are worrying too much about possible problems. I do it, too -- it's hard not to, but you know that saying, "Don't go looking for trouble"? Don't.

You already know that you can't spare the money -- does your dh know that? I assume he does. So what makes you think he is going to give money to his brother? Is there a pattern, here?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 10:47 am
lavenderchimes wrote:
I would give maaser to family who were really in a desparate situation, but not for some crazy investment.

OP, nothing has happened. You are worrying too much about possible problems. I do it, too -- it's hard not to, but you know that saying, "Don't go looking for trouble"? Don't.

You already know that you can't spare the money -- does your dh know that? I assume he does. So what makes you think he is going to give money to his brother? Is there a pattern, here?


The family needs it because of the crazy investments. Often I find the needy do not make good financial decisions. Should they be punished because of that?
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 11:19 am
I'm not understanding how a kollel guy has had a million shekel to invest/loan. It doesn't add up. It's all from selling the apartment?

Clearly this guy can't handle money.

If you are able to make a one time gift (that you are comfortable giving) and pay it directly to a wedding vendor, I would do that. Definitely don't be on the hook for bil's loans.
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lavenderchimes




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 12:06 pm
Squishy wrote:
The family needs it because of the crazy investments. Often I find the needy do not make good financial decisions. Should they be punished because of that?


I misread the original post, for which I apologize. But I am still not sure I would give BIL all my maaser in this situation. It's hard to tell, since we don't entirely know the situation. I am not suggesting that we punish the needy for being poor -- if someone can't buy food, etc, for SURE give your maaser! I am suggesting that people who constantly make huge and tragic financial decisions should not be encouraged to take out more loans that they won't be able to pay back. I DEFINITELY would not co-sign a loan. OP, just tell BIL that you can't afford to help. And if you want, offer a set amount to help with each wedding, as previously suggested.

Also, stop worrying about future pitential problems:) ❤️
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amother
Azure


 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 12:31 pm
amother wrote:
I'm not understanding how a kollel guy has had a million shekel to invest/loan. It doesn't add up. It's all from selling the apartment?

Clearly this guy can't handle money.

If you are able to make a one time gift (that you are comfortable giving) and pay it directly to a wedding vendor, I would do that. Definitely don't be on the hook for bil's loans.


OP here. As I said he sold his apt for a very very good price. An apt that he got from his parents which they worked hard for.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 12:36 pm
lavenderchimes wrote:
I would give maaser to family who were really in a desparate situation, but not for some crazy investment.

OP, nothing has happened. You are worrying too much about possible problems. I do it, too -- it's hard not to, but you know that saying, "Don't go looking for trouble"? Don't.

You already know that you can't spare the money -- does your dh know that? I assume he does. So what makes you think he is going to give money to his brother? Is there a pattern, here?


Op here. This is his only living brother (the oldest passed away a number of yrs ago). And he's got a sister.
When DH went through a very difficult divorce that took yrs, his brother did a lot for him (not financially but really spent his time to help DH). And you know, once someone helps you then you are in debt towards them. That's why I'm concerned with emotional blackmail etc.
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isrmss91




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 3:29 pm
You said you are far far from wealthy. Give a amount you feel comfortable with as a gift. Say, we apologize, but this is all we can afford. There is no reason to get involved with other peoples debts or loans.
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lavenderchimes




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 5:20 pm
amother wrote:
Op here. This is his only living brother (the oldest passed away a number of yrs ago). And he's got a sister.
When DH went through a very difficult divorce that took yrs, his brother did a lot for him (not financially but really spent his time to help DH). And you know, once someone helps you then you are in debt towards them. That's why I'm concerned with emotional blackmail etc.


I see, thanks for explaining more:) But there is no history of BIL asking for things and DH giving in even though it's obviously a bad idea?

Have you spoken to DH about your concerns?
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 5:29 pm
I understand why your dh feels this way. My dh would do. My bil helped us with knowledge type of things when we wanted to buy a house. My dh spent hours on the phone with my bil. During that time he asked my dh for a loan. My dh nicely and very respectfully declined. Bh it didn't effect their relationship.
Giving time and emotional is a huge huge help. Giving financial help is something else entirely. To me, one doesn't offset the other. Helping him financially is not repayment for his emotional help.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Sun, Dec 17 2017, 11:14 pm
If you don't have money then you don't have. There's no need to feel bad. Just give him what you can and don't excuse yourself. His brother knows he doesn't have much. He needs to be assertive. It's never a good idea to allow yourself to feel guilty. Just because he helped him doesn't mean he's the millionaire all of a sudden. Can he help him in other ways when he marries off? Like he did to him? Many times being a listening ear is priceless compared to money. From my experience
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 4:01 am
It makes sense to figure things out for the future if you see the handwriting already. Did DH agree that he wouldn't co- sign for his brother when you told him no? Is he on the same page a
s you? If not, you need to get on the same page before he is asked.

I suggested giving your maaser because you need to limit your losses. If you cosign, consider that money a gift.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Mon, Dec 18 2017, 5:43 am
OP here. DH is very much on the same page as I am (Baruch Hashem!). In fact he is the one who tells me abt BIL's wreckless behavior when it comes to money and investments. When BIL invested his half a million NIS we were also offered to invest. It was an option until I insisted that we are not going to invest a dime in anything until we make a sheelat Rav with Gdolei Israel. It took a phone call to one of the ppl who is close to the Rav. The person (not the Rav) said to stay out of it, he himself had made these investment in all kinds of high-tech things and only lost money. Needless to say, we stayed out of it.

DH is very very different from his brother and heavily critisizing BIL's "investments" and that BIL didn't get up and found himself a job long time ago (since he has so many daughters to marry off). I say that they are so different, you could belive they grew up in two different homes! However, as it is said: blood is thicker than water.
And NO, DH has not agreed to any monetary commitments towards his brother. And yes, I believe DH could be able to help BIL with things which are not money.

Your responses you have given are definitely appreciated, many thanks!
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