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What is so amazing and special about the USA?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 31 2018, 2:33 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Fox, we do have problems here related to the slave past that other countries don't have.

Um, right. But Britain has problems related to the class system of the past that we don't have. And India has problems related to the caste system that we don't have. And France has problems with integrating North African immigrants. Heck, the new Liberian President just made history by advocating that non-blacks be given citizenship -- something that is an important issue to the Lebanese-Liberian community.

My point is that racial, religious, and class conflicts have beset human civilization for millennia, and there are few if any countries in the world today that are not struggling with some aspect of that history. Smugly singling out the U.S. is almost always hypocritical and innacurate.

southernbubby wrote:
We also don't have a national religion or country of origin like many other countries do have. We are all a bunch of individuals rather than a collective group so as a bunch of individuals, we tend to look out for ourselves rather than care about the collective.

Are you saying that these are strengths or weaknesses? I would argue that they are both, depending on the circumstances and individual.

For example, many Indian immigrants are incredibly grateful to be able to escape the social and economic effects of the caste system -- even though they must give up some of the mutual support that comes along with belonging to a specific group.

Likewise, it is almost impossible for someone to successfully integrate into Japanese society and raise a family. Mixed-race children are often discriminated against in school and have difficulty finding a social milieu. That's far less of an issue in the U.S.

So while it's impossible to get American's to agree on most things (about 14 percent believe Elvis is still alive), the emphasis on individualism means people can reinvent themselves. In fact, it might be that the over-the-top patriotism that drives the rest of the world nuts is actually a necessary function when dealing with such a wildly disparate group of people. In other words, when people have absolutely nothing else in common, it becomes more necessary to shove a flag into their hands and get them waving it.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 31 2018, 3:08 pm
Fox, at this point, if you listened last night, flag waving and singing the national anthem have become divisive issues.

Countries where people are rugged individualists usually don't regard people of other groups as their fellow countrymen. The next time you go to Flushing NY, see if you feel any kindred spirits with the townsfolk because it is the best way to visit China without leaving the country.

When I think of my 'fellow Americans' somehow I don't think of someone from India or even South Africa.

A 'typical' American was one like the profiled individuals from the SOTU, like the police officer and his wife who adopted the child of a drug addict. They were good Xtians who prayed over what to do.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 31 2018, 4:32 pm
Fox, honestly, I don't think Britains problem's with class are nearly as deep as the race issue in the USA. Look at the royal family. William married a commoner. Harry is about to marry someone mixed race, and even worse, american. No one seems bothered. Of course there is class issues, but that has a lot more to do with education and money or the lack of it.
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Deep




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 31 2018, 4:51 pm
This is an interesting conversation. I agree with Raisin's points regarding the class system. The Indian caste system is particularly disturbing, but India is rightfully considered to be a third world country. Among modern societies, race is a huge issue. This is not limited to African-Americans, people of many minorities face the tribulations of prejudice and discrimination.
This is a disturbing trend termed "the bamboo ceiling" phenomenon in the tech industry. http://allenc.com/2018/01/bamb.....tech/

We have come a long way over the past few decades. I can't imagine any of the Queen's children would have entertained marrying a mixed-race woman 30 years ago. We have seen a black president in the oval office. This man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagmeet_Singh is the current leader of one of the 3 major political parties in Canada, the NDP. He could potentially be a future prime minister. By acknowledging that we are imperfect, we can continue to improve.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 31 2018, 4:56 pm
Deep wrote:
This is an interesting conversation. I agree with Raisin's points regarding the class system. The Indian caste system is particularly disturbing, but India is rightfully considered to be a third world country. Among modern societies, race is a huge issue. This is not limited to African-Americans, people of many minorities face the tribulations of prejudice and discrimination.
This is a disturbing trend termed "the bamboo ceiling" phenomenon in the tech industry. http://allenc.com/2018/01/bamb.....tech/

We have come a long way over the past few decades. I can't imagine any of the Queen's children would have entertained marrying a mixed-race woman 30 years ago. We have seen a black president in the oval office. This man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagmeet_Singh is the current leader of one of the 3 major political parties in Canada, the NDP. He could potentially be a future prime minister. By acknowledging that we are imperfect, we can continue to improve.


So I am happy with my tax cut but if I really felt a connection to my fellow citizens, particularly those who are financially struggling, I would prefer to pay higher taxes and know that all citizens are cared for but I don't feel any more bond or connection to fellow Americans outside of my immediate circle than I do to people 30 minutes away in Canada. Because I care more about my wallet than about my fellow Americans, I vote my wallet.

More progressive countries don't operate that way but the general fabric of society is more cohesive.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 31 2018, 5:40 pm
Deep wrote:
We love our rambunctious neighbours! The friendship our 2 nations share is incredible.


Love how we were both hugged. Why?
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Deep




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 31 2018, 6:10 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Love how we were both hugged. Why?


I would rather think that someone wants to share the love Very Happy . My favourite ever US/ CANADA moment was this https://www.washingtonpost.com.....103e.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 01 2018, 3:42 am
Ruchel wrote:
Agree so much with Raisin. If you're Jewish and rich, go to America.
Wow, that WAY oversimplifying things, dont you think? If one is jewish and rich, there are so many places in Hashem's world where they can live. America is not the be all to end all.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 01 2018, 4:19 am
I am american by birth but I now live in Israel.
I do not think america is the be all to end all, but there are definitely so wonderful things about the country.
First and foremost, religious freedom. My grandparents all made their way to america after WW2 and they practiced Judaism in america how they saw fit. I personally think that that is probably the most precious thing of all.
Yes, there are many material things in america that make it a place that many love, but for me those things really never meant anything.
I had a wonderful childhood growing up in america and I dont have anything bad to say about the country. Why people are so amazed with america I personally do not understand, but thats just my personal opinion.
Ive lived in Israel for quite a few years now and I literally do not envision how I would ever be able to live in america again, but thats ok, I dont have to.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 01 2018, 6:04 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I am american by birth but I now live in Israel.
I do not think america is the be all to end all, but there are definitely so wonderful things about the country.
First and foremost, religious freedom. My grandparents all made their way to america after WW2 and they practiced Judaism in america how they saw fit. I personally think that that is probably the most precious thing of all.
Yes, there are many material things in america that make it a place that many love, but for me those things really never meant anything.
I had a wonderful childhood growing up in america and I dont have anything bad to say about the country. Why people are so amazed with america I personally do not understand, but thats just my personal opinion.
Ive lived in Israel for quite a few years now and I literally do not envision how I would ever be able to live in america again, but thats ok, I dont have to.

I agree with most of this.

I don't buy into all the America-shaming that is de rigeur in American academia and media these days.

America has been an amazing haven for Jews (and many other groups). We Jews of all people should be thankful for the US and the religious freedom its Constitution affords us.

Does the country have its flaws? Absolutely -- as does every country on planet Earth.

Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade, by the way. Slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire until 1833. And classism is still an issue there.

Spain subjugated native peoples in South America. Oh, and there was that little matter of the Inquisition.

Germany - um, well...

Most of Europe was ruled by an oppressive feudal system for hundreds of years.

Russia had a filthy rich monarchy and dirt poor peasants for hundreds of years. Then they had a revolution, and instituted oppressive Communist regime.

France had a similar history, with a bloody, violent revolution that spun entirely out of control.

Many African nations are still corrupt dictatorships or military regimens with very little personal freedom, or dirt-poor bankrupt countries with malnourished citizens.

Japan was a xenophobic feudal empire for centuries. Their behavior in WWII was brutal and repulsive (google "Rape of Nanking").

So I find it very odd when people single out the US for racism or economic issues.

The important thing to look at is the trend -- are things getting better or worse? We've gone from slavery to Jim Crow to complete legal equality to African Americans in some of the highest positions of power in the land in <200 years. I'd say that's pretty impressive, and an indication that the US is grappling successfully with its flaws and consantly improving.

The standard of living has never been higher.

I think the US is wonderful because it is founded on an ideal rather than a people. I am so grateful for the foresight and wisdom that the Framers used to craft the US Constitution. It laid the foundations for a truly amazing and unique country.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 01 2018, 6:55 am
Quote:
Ruchel wrote:
Agree so much with Raisin. If you're Jewish and rich, go to America.
Wow, that WAY oversimplifying things, dont you think? If one is jewish and rich, there are so many places in Hashem's world where they can live. America is not the be all to end all.


Ha, I was not saying if you are Jewish and rich you must go and live in the USA. If you are Jewish the usa has lots of Jewish people and thus schools, kosher food, etc, so its a good place to live. BUT you need a good income to make it in most larger Jewish communities. In fact I know many many people who make aliya for exactly this reason, as well as love of EY, it can be much more affordable to live in EY. (While housing can still be an issue in EY especially if you want or need to live in the centre of the country, tuition and healthcare is much more managable)

There are of course many other places besides EY where Jewish people might be happy living.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 01 2018, 7:14 am
DrMom wrote:
I agree with most of this.

I don't buy into all the America-shaming that is de rigeur in American academia and media these days.

America has been an amazing haven for Jews (and many other groups). We Jews of all people should be thankful for the US and the religious freedom its Constitution affords us.

Does the country have its flaws? Absolutely -- as does every country on planet Earth.

Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade, by the way. Slavery wasn't abolished in the British Empire until 1833. And classism is still an issue there.

Spain subjugated native peoples in South America. Oh, and there was that little matter of the Inquisition.

Germany - um, well...

Most of Europe was ruled by an oppressive feudal system for hundreds of years.

Russia had a filthy rich monarchy and dirt poor peasants for hundreds of years. Then they had a revolution, and instituted oppressive Communist regime.

France had a similar history, with a bloody, violent revolution that spun entirely out of control.

Many African nations are still corrupt dictatorships or military regimens with very little personal freedom, or dirt-poor bankrupt countries with malnourished citizens.

Japan was a xenophobic feudal empire for centuries. Their behavior in WWII was brutal and repulsive (google "Rape of Nanking").

So I find it very odd when people single out the US for racism or economic issues.

The important thing to look at is the trend -- are things getting better or worse? We've gone from slavery to Jim Crow to complete legal equality to African Americans in some of the highest positions of power in the land in <200 years. I'd say that's pretty impressive, and an indication that the US is grappling successfully with its flaws and consantly improving.

The standard of living has never been higher.

I think the US is wonderful because it is founded on an ideal rather than a people. I am so grateful for the foresight and wisdom that the Framers used to craft the US Constitution. It laid the foundations for a truly amazing and unique country.


True, Britain benefited from slavery. People did a lot of horrible things in the past. But, well into the 20th century, well after women got the vote, and at the exact same time, and for 20 years after, that people in the USA were decrying (and fighting against) Nazis for persecuting Jews, Americans still found it perfectly fine to uphold Jim Crow laws.

Quote:
I think the US is wonderful because it is founded on an ideal rather than a people.


Yes, that is what I personally find so incongruous. To make a constitution declaring all men to be free or whatever it says, and then go and enslave people with darker skins, and when they are freed, carry on with discriminatory laws for another century or so - that is what is odd. To call yourself the land of the free, when so many people were anything but, is a sad joke that even liberal americans ignore.

And no one here has even mentioned the Native Americans, although to be fair, a lot of that was well in the past.

Of course things are getting better but they seem to take a lot longer in the USA then in other western countries. (please, lets not drag in the the third world here. I think we can all agree they are not ideal places to live)

Nothing wrong with admitting your faults in the past as a country. That is the way to move on and get better.
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Deep




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 01 2018, 8:08 am
Raisin wrote:
Yes, that is what I personally find so incongruous. To make a constitution declaring all men to be free or whatever it says, and then go and enslave people with darker skins, and when they are freed, carry on with discriminatory laws for another century or so - that is what is odd. To call yourself the land of the free, when so many people were anything but, is a sad joke that even liberal americans ignore.

And no one here has even mentioned the Native Americans, although to be fair, a lot of that was well in the past.

Of course things are getting better but they seem to take a lot longer in the USA then in other western countries. (please, lets not drag in the the third world here. I think we can all agree they are not ideal places to live)

Nothing wrong with admitting your faults in the past as a country. That is the way to move on and get better.


This. It is also disingenuous to compare American history to other countries with checkered pasts going back millennia. It would be more suitable to compare it to nations of the "New World" such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the South American countries. All of the above countries treated their indigenous peoples horribly (although they were technically colonies at the time). All have made significant progress on issues of racism and sexism in the past century. All still have room for improvement. Some significantly more than others.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 01 2018, 8:56 am
Deep wrote:
I would rather think that someone wants to share the love Very Happy . My favourite ever US/ CANADA moment was this https://www.washingtonpost.com.....103e.


I can't open this but as you are a polite, tmimusdik Canadian, I'm sure I'd like it, so I'll take a chance and like your post. Wink
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