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Forum
-> Relationships
-> Manners & Etiquette
DrMom
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 11:58 am
Sadie wrote: | English used to have this! In the olden days "you" was plural/formal and "thee/thou" was singular/informal. It would be helpful in many circumstances to bring this back! |
I'm going to try using this on my rav and see how it goes over.
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SixOfWands
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 12:09 pm
DrMom wrote: | I'm going to try using this on my rav and see how it goes over. |
It would work fine. "Rabbi, will you be coming to the kiddush this Shabbat?" (Dr. Mom, "see, I secretly used the formal "you" not the casual "thou." I'm uber polite!" Rabbi (not noticing anything) "sure!")
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lavenderchimes
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 12:13 pm
I have never heard of this. I use "you" or "your."
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Water Stones
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 12:18 pm
Will someone please explain what is first, second, third person? Thank you!
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SpottedBanana
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 12:43 pm
Seashells wrote: | Will someone please explain what is first, second, third person? Thank you! |
First person = I, me, my = things to do with me
Second person = you, your, yours = things to do with you
Third person = he, she, they = things to do with other people.
Often, referring to someone in the third person while talking to them can be considered a form of respect for one's rav. This doesn't really exist in the secular world. "You" used to be formal while "thou" was the informal counterpart, but "thou" is no longer used by anyone at all.
Does Danish have a formal "you"? (you're from Denmark, right?)
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Rubber Ducky
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 1:33 pm
I say "you." In Tanach the Avos used second person when addressing G-d and Rabbonim do not outrank G-d. This usage does appear to be linguistically based. DH is OK with 3rd person — he's a native Spanish speaker, and Spanish has a formal form of you.
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DrMom
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 1:38 pm
SixOfWands wrote: | It would work fine. "Rabbi, will you be coming to the kiddush this Shabbat?" (Dr. Mom, "see, I secretly used the formal "you" not the casual "thou." I'm uber polite!" Rabbi (not noticing anything) "sure!") |
Ah, "you" is formal and "thou" is informal?
I would have expected the opposite.
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Sadie
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 3:09 pm
DrMom wrote: | Ah, "you" is formal and "thou" is informal?
I would have expected the opposite. |
I was also surprised when I first learned this- I think because thee/thou is archaic it just automatically sounds more formal to modern ears. Thee/thou is also how people used to address G-d in English (like how in Yiddish Hashem is “du” even if the rav is “ihr”)
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ggdm
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 3:28 pm
Ruchel wrote: | Nope, German isn't third person, it's du vs Sie |
Modern German has two words for addressing a person, the informal "du" and the formal "Sie". The verb forms used for "Sie" are those of the third person plural ("wollen Sie noch Wein" vs "willst du noch Wein"). I don't know Yiddish, so I can't say anything about it, but yes, linguistically it derives from old German so the rules can very well be different.
As for the topic of addressing the rabbi, I would always use the honorific "rabbi" and the formal "you". I have lived in different countries and have heard first and last names used and adapted accordingly. But to me it feels wrong to not at least have one "respect" component (honorific, formal "you", last name). I'd go for all three if I don't know the person.
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ggdm
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 3:33 pm
Sadie wrote: | I was also surprised when I first learned this- I think because thee/thou is archaic it just automatically sounds more formal to modern ears. Thee/thou is also how people used to address G-d in English (like how in Yiddish Hashem is “du” even if the rav is “ihr”) |
I have heard that in one of these Christian bible versions that is always cited (King George?), they specifically used "thou" to address G-d to illustrate the aspect of closeness. As the English language changed over the last 400 (?) years, the effect of that decision text has reversed itself. Languages are so fascinating!
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FranticFrummie
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 3:51 pm
ggdm wrote: | I have heard that in one of these Christian bible versions that is always cited (King George?), they specifically used "thou" to address G-d to illustrate the aspect of closeness. As the English language changed over the last 400 (?) years, the effect of that decision text has reversed itself. Languages are so fascinating! |
King James. It's nearly impossible to read out loud, if you are used to modern American language. Very poetic, though. In one verse, they translated "ox" as "unicorn", because the unicorn was on the coat of arms of the king.
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amother
Tangerine
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 4:02 pm
OP here. That was all pretty interesting. I had learned and forgotten about all those linguistic things. It seems like it's mostly to do with the you /thou vous/tu etc distinction than anything halachic, because Hebrew does not have a formal "you".
So that made me think that if *I* were writing the rules I would davka say it was FORBIDDEN TO USE this type of formal language when addressing a Rabbi because it is literally copying the ways of the non jews.
But of course, OTOH, it could be argued that now that the Queen of England no longer requires this formality it is permitted to us to show our distance from a rabbi. Maybe.
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Frenchfry
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 6:28 pm
I always say "does the Rosh Yeshiva....." Or, "Does the Rav", or, " does R' ploni....'
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Water Stones
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Mon, Feb 05 2018, 9:34 pm
SpottedBanana wrote: | First person = I, me, my = things to do with me
Second person = you, your, yours = things to do with you
Third person = he, she, they = things to do with other people.
Often, referring to someone in the third person while talking to them can be considered a form of respect for one's rav. This doesn't really exist in the secular world. "You" used to be formal while "thou" was the informal counterpart, but "thou" is no longer used by anyone at all.
Does Danish have a formal "you"? (you're from Denmark, right?) |
We have du and de. Nobody uses formal de.
Thank you for this information!
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