Are boys’ Yeshiva hours too long?

mommyla

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:38 pm

keym wrote:

We are talking about 9th grade, not married men. They are still "tasting the sweetness". Even in the RW yeshivish velt 7-7 (12 hours) is plenty.
My dream yeshiva btw has
1) kodesh 9-4, chol 4-7. Ninth grade go home, 10th night seder 7-8, 11th grade night seder 7-8:45, 12th grade night seder 7:30-9:30.
3) no 1 1/2 hr lunch break to go off campus and buy pizza. Instead the whole day is 1-1 1/2 hour learning interspersed with 15-20 min sports breaks.
4) really good food
5) pool available with swimming optional twice/week
6) extracurricular available- tutoring elementary school age boys for money, hobbyshop etc 1-2 times a week)

In other words work hard, play hard, tight leash and learn hard. And more importantly develop the desire to learn.
For regular boys, not struggling boys.

Please open a yeshiva before my son gets to high school Very Happy

naturalmom5

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:42 pm

keym wrote:

Keym...Then you would have the same problem that the MO world
Has lol.. Your. Fantasy school would cost 20k a year

Its a big crisis when the average is. 3 children and 120k a year income
It would be an absolute disaster in a community where the average is 7 children and 45/50 k a year income

amother

Ruby

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 9:46 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I have already agreed with you about less hours. We were discussing solutions, remember? Can we brainstorm?

As for bekiyus, there is already at least one yeshiva in Lakewood that learns that way.

I think I missed a page somewhere LOL

More bekiyus tracks are definitely a good starting point. I wonder if there's a way to open a dialogue with the big Rabbonim about the balance between family and school. A lot of control has been relinquished to schools over the years and it's not a good thing. Families need to be able to have more of a say in their childrens' upbringing. This could then tackle the issue of typical boys who simply can't handle the intense schedule. Oh, and for rabbonim to endorse a few hobbies.

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 10:30 pm

amother wrote:

Off the top of my head, I'd suggest:

- optional night seder

- offer a life skill class or two during the day. It would give the boys a refreshing break, and would be very beneficial for all.

- incorporate other Torah'dik subjects, Tanach, Halacha, etc.

I'm not looking for suggestions! I'm looking for action!!! I asked this earlier on this thread - how do we get the system to change? What can we do on imamother, or IRL, to change the system? Because if all you ladies want to do is vent, then I'm out of the conversation.

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 10:41 pm

Notsobusy wrote:

Why should a boy who otherwise is fully a part of the yeshivish system, have to leave it just because he doesn't enjoy learning gemarah for hours and hours and hours of his day. I never said he doesn't want to learn at all, he just wants to also learn other things. He doesn't need help getting to like gemarah.

He needs, and so do a lot of other boys, a yeshiva within the yeshivish framework, in which he can learn other things. The yeshiva community is not only about learning gemarah. It's about haskafah, it's about a whole way of life. If the only issue he has is the many long hours of gemarah learning then he shouldn't have to leave his community.

The yeshiva community has to start catering to ALL of it's boys, not just the big learners, or it will continue losing more and more boys. While it's not so terrible if they're not yeshivish, a lot of them will drop more than just they yeshivishness, plenty will drop their whole yiddishkeit.

It's the people and the yeshivos who think you can only be part of the yeshivish community if who are a great learner are the ones who are causing these kids to go off.

What do you mean by the bolded? You said he doesn't want to learn gemarah, he doesn't enjoy it. Of course there are yeshivos in Lakewood that have English, ALSO, but even a yeshiva that has English is going to have a solid gemarah curriculum in the morning. There are yeshivos like that in Lakewood, but it seems that these yeshivos are not good enough for this boy.

And I don't mean to contradict you, but yes, the yeshiva community IS all about gemarah. This is how it is today. If this is not the system he wants, then he wants a yeshiva that caters to JPF boys, which, like I said, is not as yeshivish.

You say that the yeshiva community has to start catering to ALL of it's boys, but who is this mythical "community"? Let's visualize the yeshivos like a business, and the parents of boys who send there like consumers. A business will only sell what the consumers want. If the consumers are all lining up for yeshivos that end at 10:00 - that's what the business will sell. It's time to stop blaming the yeshivos, and it's time to look at ourselves. We, the parents, we did this. And this has to change.

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 10:45 pm

jkl wrote:

Bang our heads against the wall, run for the hills? Kidding aside, do you think a small group of mothers can actually bring about a change? Imo, something drastic would need to take place for this entrenched mindset to be altered.

Is it only a small group of mothers? Or is the problem more widespread? I just made ONE phone call, when I got off imamother tonight, I just called ONE friend. And I started a volcano! Boy did she have what to say! So why do you think we are such a small group? I have a feeling there's a lot of pent-up anger underneath. It's not just you.

How can we start changing the system? Letters to the editor of Jewish publications? Anybody who knows the editorial board of Hamodia?

amother

Magenta

Thu, Feb 15 2018, 11:18 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

No, it's not only a small group of mother. It's actually a very very large group. What I meant to say was that it will only be a small group of mothers who will be willing to rock the boat.

Mommyg8

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 9:05 pm

I had this discussion with my menfolk over Shabbos...

So, I just wanted to bring up the following to amother gray, if she is still following this thread.

My husband was in a mainstream yeshiva high school about 35 years ago. He said that night seder was mandatory twice a week in ninth grade. Three times a week in tenth, and then every night in eleventh and twelfth grade. So we are basically arguing about three times a week in ninth grade, and twice a week in tenth grade. Night seder finished at 10:00, and he didn't get home until 10:30. His parents chose to send him to dorm for this reason, starting in eleventh grade. I asked him if anyone in his grade went OTD, he said no. OTOH, not everyone from his elementary school was accepted into this high school, so I'm not sure where the other boys went.... and what the schedule was in the school that they were in.

I asked my son about night seder in his yeshiva. He said that the boys grumbled a bit in the beginning, but they got used to it pretty quickly, and now everyone goes, and everyone learns seriously. He also said, like I had thought, that night seder is basically review, so if you weren't really doing too much the first and second seder... there's not much to do by night seder.

As for texting on Shabbos... we have given this some thought, and the honest truth is that there are kids who do this in every school, so let's not kid ourselves. My friend was telling me about a situation in her very heimish school in Boro Park. Obviously, the kids are not advertising what they are doing, but this is a widespread problem that is not centralized in more "centrist" or MO yeshivos or schools.

And there are kids who do all kids of things, and they are in every yeshiva and every school. There is no way to insulate children today, so those who feel that if they just send their kids to the "right" school and they won't encounter any bad influences... are just putting their heads in the sand.

I think this thread has gotten to the point where all the mothers agree that night seder is too late, but no-one seemed to have come up with a realistic solution. I think the answer is that we have to advocate for our children. I have learned over the years that it is important to advocate for your child, all through elementary school if need be, and certainly your parental responsibilities do not end in high school. Call the school, talk to them, if need be find a chosuva Rav or someone who can call for you. Advocate for your child! It's important!

naturalmom5

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 11:26 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Truer words were never said. You also need to know your child. My 19 yr old is in college now. He was miserable in yeshiva through high school. Now he learns at night, is very active in NCSY and kiruv. I never saw him so enthusiastic so about Torah. He constantly engages non-religious guys in school in conversation about yiddishkeit.

Mommyg8

Sun, Feb 18 2018, 11:40 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I agree. You have to know your child, and not all children are meant for the same system. I have k'h a few boys, each one went to a different yeshiva, and one went to a yeshiva that is a bit less "yeshivish" than his brothers. This was a great fit for him, and b'h he's very happy, very passionate about his Yiddishkeit, even if he's not going to wear a "black hat". It's silly to put boys into a box, and you have to know what is going to work for your child. Kudos to you for doing what is best for your son!